The Drafting of Wills - Hull on Estate and Succession Planning #155
Listen to The Drafting of Wills
This week on Hull on Estates and Succession Planning, Ian Hull and Jordan Atin discuss drafting wills and some of the more personal aspects of it such as family matters and charitable giving.
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The Drafting of Wills - Hull on Estate and Succession Planning #155
Posted on March 10th, 2009 by Hull & Hull LLP
Welcome to Hull on Estates and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag. The podcast you’re listening to will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada. From the offices of Hull & Hull in Toronto, here are Ian and Suzana.
Ian Hull: Hi and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. I’m Ian Hull and I have my special guest today, Jordan Atin.
Jordan Atin: Hey Ian, how are you doing?
Ian Hull: I’m terrific, thanks.
Jordan Atin: That’s good.
Ian Hull: So we’re missing Suzana this week and we’re going to miss her for two weeks in a row actually. She’s enjoying the sunny side of the Caribbean.
Jordan Atin: Sounds good.
Ian Hull: Sounds very good.
Jordan Atin: She didn’t want to take her estates lawyer with her?
Ian Hull: No, she didn’t ask, neither of us were invited.
Jordan Atin: Well that’s a shame.
Ian Hull: So we’re casual today because we’re going to talk about a casual fireside discussion. And the fireside discussion is about drafting Wills.
Jordan Atin: Okay.
Ian Hull: And some of the sort of more personal aspects of it. I had the pleasure of speaking to a group the other night and one of the people speaking was relaying the message about how personal the actual Will drawing process is in itself. We, as lawyers, live and breathe the kind of clinical, you know, black and white world of Will drafting. But we forget sometimes that drawing a Will is a very personal event and what you often will be putting down on paper is from the heart.
Jordan Atin: Absolutely.
Ian Hull: And I thought in your Will drawing practice, do you see that kind of aspect of it, or do you sometimes have to remind yourself that you’ve got to be sensitive to that part of the non-clinical Will drafting process?
Jordan Atin: I think its true you have to be aware of the intimacy of that process. I find that people come to me, you know, in all areas of the world. The fact is that people have different personalities and people treat the Will preparation differently. So some people will come to me and they want to get it done, its something to check off their list. Its not a very intimate situation, they just want to get it done. I’ve got kids, I’ve got a spouse, let’s get it done, boom, I check it off, it’s a business transaction.
For others, it’s a much more emotional taking stock of their life type situation. We talk a lot about the family, about relationships. You know, its not purely about assets in a financial transaction. But its about other aspects of their life. I always say that a Will is sort of a last thing that a parent says to their kids. And if you look at it in that way, and you take it to that extreme, then yeah, its going to be a very intimate discussion.
Ian Hull: And the second part of it then, do you find when someone passes away and the family comes to see you to administer the estate, do you find that that too can be a bit personal? That indeed they are, maybe for the first time, hearing the words of the loved one who’s passed away and that initial stage of dealing with the assets, although business like, has a personal element too?
Jordan Atin: Absolutely. I mean, you know, there’s the obvious grieving process that is going on. And you overlay that with something like, you know, the administration of estate (a) they’re worried about not knowing what they’re doing, they’ve never done it before, its their loved one. And they’re also, as you say, they’re seeing the last words that their mom or dad is going to say to them on the page. And especially if that isn’t what they are expecting, however mom or dad deals with them, if its not what they are expecting then that even puts another layer of emotion on to it. And yeah, it’s a very difficult time.
Ian Hull: Alright. When we’re talking about expectations and certainly children maybe have fixed expectations before their parents die as to how they’re going to deal with their estate. One of the expectations that many parents may or may not communicate is the idea of giving back, and giving back to charity.
Jordan Atin: Yeah.
Ian Hull: We often…I met with a client the other day who said you know, he was talking about his existence and he’s an elderly guy and he said look, you know, I’m self-made. I came off the trains and built my own insurance business and no one ever gave me a dime. But I’m not so foolish to believe that the world hasn’t given me great things. And I walk into churches or my local church that was donated many, many generations before and I know that although I’d like to think I made my own way in life, I have been a benefactor of other charitable generosity. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because he was a very wealthy man and was talking about how he wanted to consider…obviously his family was priority one…but consider some charitable gifting.
Jordan Atin: Right.
Ian Hull: And so how do you address that typically when your clients come in to talk about charitable gifting and the dynamic between charities and wanting to give back to your community and to your family?
Jordan Atin: Well again, and you hit it right on the head at the beginning, its all about expectations. So if the kids are not expecting that some amount is going to charity, especially if it’s a significant amount, that is going to cause problems in its own right, leaving aside if it’s a charity or its somebody else. If its not going to them and they are anticipating that, that’s going to be a problem. So certainly when we’re discussing about leaving to charities, leaving to the kids, we encourage our clients to discuss that with their kids. And it’s a great lesson to teach to your kids that look, I’m giving back to society, to the people who are less fortunate. I mean, its hard to argue with that, but its even harder to argue about that while the person is alive than after the fact when it just becomes dollars and cents. And so I think that that’s an important first step about that. And then, you know, clients often ask what kind of advice I can give them about charities. I mean, there’s certainly a tax benefit to it for sure. But often people will come to me with ideas about specific charities. Sometimes its more of just a general charitable idea.
Ian Hull: So I guess the communication element is vital at that point, as best as you can, to encourage your clients to have some dialogue so that the expectations are managed.
Jordan Atin: Absolutely. I mean, unmet expectations, whether those expectations are reasonable. I mean, people say to me, well I don’t really care what their expectations are; they’ll get what they’ll get. The reality is thats..and you know as a litigator..what drives this. Unmet expectations, whether they’re reasonable or completely off the chart, if they’re not at least addressed, then you’re in trouble.
Ian Hull: Well as we both know having children of our own, its always hard to meet the expectations of children.
Jordan Atin: I’m still trying.
Ian Hull: I’m still never going to achieve that goal. But I see your point in that the unmet expectations can be managed and it should be managed because it doesn’t do the charity any good either to receive a gift that they’re going to have to fight for with the family later. And coming back to the personal element of the process is that presumably if they are the client that is taking this as a personal moment in time when they’re creating their Will, part of what they’re doing is they’re saying that’s what I want, that is part of the legacy I want. And so if that is something you want to close the loop on, so to speak, is I guess a big part of that would be to communicate that to your family.
Jordan Atin: Yeah, I mean you’re certainly saying something in your Will but what’s even more valuable is saying something during your lifetime.
Ian Hull: Alright. Well I think this is a good point to sort of wrap up. We’re going to do a little mini-series. We have the benefit of Jordan Atin here today and he has a terrific book called “The Family War”, www.thefamilywar.com and I highly recommend you take a look at. And we’re going to knock a little bit more time off Jordan’s day today for a second part of the series that we’ll air the following week to talk a little bit about some of the mechanics of the charitable giving and some of the specifics, because you touched on an important part. There are tax elements to it and I think its worth delving into that a little bit.
Jordan Atin: Great.
Ian Hull: So on that basis, we’ll wrap up today’s podcast. And thank you very much for joining. Again, we have enjoyed having our esteemed colleague and terrific lawyer, Jordan Atin, with us today. Much missing Suzana as she sits on the beach and enjoys some well-deserved time off.
You have been listening to Hull on Estates and Succession Planning by Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag. The podcast that you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always speak with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstance.
To listen to other Hull & Hull podcasts, or leave any questions or comments, please visit our website at hullestatemediation.com.
