Intensive Wills and Estates Workshop Hull on Estates #213
Listen to: Intensive Wills and Estates Workshop
This week on Hull on Estates, Natalia Angelini and Rick Bickhram discuss the Intensive Wills and Estates Workshop that recently took place at Osgoode Hall Law School. The three day workshop covered an array of will and estates matters, including questions that will be asked during an initial meeting to gather necessary information to start preparing a will.
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Natalia R. Angelini – Click here for more information on Natalia Angelini.
Rick Bickhram - Click here for more information on Rick Bickhram.
Natalia Angelini: Hello and welcome to Hull on Estates. You’re listening to episode #213 on Tuesday, July 13, 2010.
Welcome to Hull on Estates, a series of podcasts for the Canadian legal community dealing with issues and insights surrounding estate planning in Canada. Hosted by the lawyers of
Rick Bickhram: Hi and welcome to another episode of Hull on Estates. I’m Rick Bickhram.
Natalia Angelini: And I’m Natalia Angelini.
Rick Bickhram: And if you want to be heard on Hull on Estates, you can participate by leaving us a comment. Email us at hull.lawyers@gmail.com or you can visit our blog at estatelaw.hullandhull.com.
Natalia Angelini: So Rick, how are you liking this heat wave that hit Toronto last week?
Rick Bickhram: It certainly is a different feel from the extreme cold weather alerts. I love it. How about you?
Natalia Angelini: Yeah, I adjusted well. My hair is reaching a new level of frizziness that hasn’t happened before so that’s interesting. No, but on a serious note, today we are gonna talk about intensive…the intensive Wills and Estates Workshop that recently took place. It was really helpful. It was a 3 day workshop and covered an array of Wills and Estates matters.
Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. And the workshop was done at Osgoode Hall Law School and conducted by Jordan Atin, Ed Esposto and Rachel Blumenfeld.
Natalia Angelini: So even though a lot of topics were covered, we thought we’d focus on one today which is sort of limited to that first meeting you have with your client and really completing their personal data…your personal data sheet or check list, however you want to call it with the necessary information you need to get started on preparing a Will for that person.
Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. And this is what happens when you originally meet with the client. And Natalia and I are just gonna go through some general questions that originally is asked at these sort of meetings. And one of the first questions obviously is gonna be, what is your full name? And when you ask these sort of questions, what you’re trying to obtain is the proper name of the client. Now Natalia, maybe you could help us out here. Why is that important?
Natalia Angelini: Well it may seem sort of obvious but you want to make sure that you’ve got the correct name that’s on their other legal and financial papers. So, for example, clients may use a middle initial or a nickname or an anglicized version of their name. So you just want to make sure the right Will is probated and the Certificate of Appointment of Estate Trustee has that correct name.
Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. And in my scenario, I often go by the name Rick Bickhram but if you look at my actual birth certificate, it’s not Rick Bickhram. It’s Rijendra Bickhram. So there is a perfect example of why…
Natalia Angelini: Right.
Rick Bickhram: You would want to get the proper legal name.
Natalia Angelini: Right. And you know something as simple as asking for their address is also important because that could lead to a discussion of, you know, residence for tax and probate purposes. So each step that you get to, I guess, in this process of information gathering has its own importance.
Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. Another issue that you’re gonna want to canvass with your client when you meet with them is, the date and place of birth. Don’t be shy to find out how old your client is. It’s relevant information and the reason why this is relevant is because this could also be a retirement plan. Estate planning but also retirement planning. The place of birth may also be a point of discussion for assets that may be tied to other jurisdictions.
Natalia Angelini: Right. And even asking questions like what their occupation and annual income are can be important because that…I mean it helps you get to know your client, which is essential. And also help you assess their financial status and the kind of benefits their employer may or may not cover.
Rick Bickhram: Yeah. And citizenship…you would also want to canvass the citizenship of your client. And the reason why this is important is because it again deals with tax issues. There may be numerous tax issues in that one question, that also may deal with assets or maybe assets tied in other jurisdictions that you’re not necessarily aware of.
Natalia Angelini: Right. Also moving on to marital status. And this is important because you may have a client that’s a common law spouse who doesn’t have the same types of legal entitlement as married spouses. For example, they can’t…you know, a common law spouse can’t make an equalization claim under the Family Law Act. You know, they don’t get a share of the Estate if you’ve got an intestate testator. And, you know, you may have former spouses that are in the picture or at least that you need to know about because that former spouse may have an interest by way of a Separation Agreement or a contract or even as a dependant. So canvassing marital status is…can be critical.
Rick Bickhram: Yeah, lots of issues associated in that topic alone. Another issue that you’re gonna want to canvass with your clients are children. Do they have any children? What are their names? What are their dates of birth? Where do these children live? And this is all important again for some reasons that Natalia just mentioned in the sense that these children have possible claims under the Family Law Act and under the Succession Law Reform Act which could be commenced. Natalia, what else could this issue of children be relevant for?
Natalia Angelini: Well…right, well I mean you may…some people don’t consider children born outside of marriage their children or they may have had a child years ago that they don’t acknowledge. And, you know, under the Children’s Law Reform Act, you know, unless a child has been adopted by someone else, then that child, you know, is for all intents and purposes, a child of the testator. So it’s not something that can be ignored.
Rick Bickhram: And this also goes to the estate planning issue because there are certain tax incentives dependent on where the child lives. So again, estate planning…it’s necessary to know the children and where they live. Another issue that may want to be canvassed by…you may want to canvass with your client…
Natalia Angelini: Well you most definitely want to canvass this. We would…you know, we most definitely would canvass whether they have a Will, a prior Will. And sorry Rick to interrupt…
Rick Bickhram: No, I was gonna ask you why?
Natalia Angelini: But you definitely want to see any prior Wills. If there are any radical departures, that should be raising alarm bells and you’d need to explore that because you may have capacity issues or undue influence issues. And really, I mean as our job, we definitely need to explore that and document our exploration of all of this…of this information.
Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. It may be rational the reason why they’re departing from their previous Will even though it’s substantial. I think it still may be…there still may be a justified explanation for it. So it’s not an automatic undue influence sort of situation.
Natalia Angelini: Now moving on to the testator’s assets or obligations, one thing to inquire about, I think, is whether they themselves are an estate or trustee over an estate. Because, you know, if they happen to be a sole executor and then your client then dies, his or her own executor will inherit that other executorship. So…and that’s…the Trustee Act speaks to that. But you would be prudent to ask that.
Rick Bickhram: Be mindful.
Natalia Angelini: Right.
Rick Bickhram: Of that issue. Another issue that you may want to canvass with your client is whether or not they’ve been married more than once. And this is important because again there may be continuing financial obligations to a former spouse or to children by reason of a Court Order or Separation Agreement, right?
Natalia Angelini: Right. I mean we see a lot of litigation between second spouses and children from a first spouse or, you know, vice versa. And it’s always an interesting delicate dynamic. So it’s definitely a good idea to get that information, in our view.
Rick Bickhram: Another issue that you will certainly want to canvass with your client are assets. And this is important for a variety of reasons. I’m just hoping Natalia will take us through a few of them.
Natalia Angelini: Well I mean we want to have, you know, a complete plan in place. And so you need a full picture of what the assets are that fall into the estate, that fall outside of the estate. You know, there may be suggestions that you could make about, you know, insurance designations, RRIF’s, etc. I mean, I can’t…I’m not gonna get into any more detail for today but, you know, at a minimum, if you want to rest easier about testamentary capacity then spending time with a client who can outline all of his or her assets in a clear way is…definitely goes towards that. And I mean I think, you know, we need to be particular asking about cars and boats and household goods and real estate, bank accounts, safety deposit boxes.
Rick Bickhram: Life insurance policies, RRSP’s, RRIF’s, investments. I think Natalia made a really good point when she said that this would go to the testator’s capacity and that goes to whether or not they’re able to recall their assets. And if they are, you know, that certainly would go to their abilities to give instructions to draft a Will.
Natalia Angelini: And on the flip side of that coin, you also want to have sort of a full exploration of liabilities. And I don’t think we need to get into that detail but, you know, you need to…we like to have the same kind of explorative approach to asking about all kinds of liabilities. And if you’re interested in, you know, reading more on this or learning more on it, then we do suggest you get the materials that were circulated at the Wills and Estates Workshop. There’s a variety of check lists and, you know, personal data sheets. And we’ve certainly reviewed those in prepping for our talk today. So you might see some…you’ll see some…you’ll recognize some of the things that we’ve mentioned when you look at those materials. But they really are a great tool to have.
Rick Bickhram: And I think that brings us to an end of this week’s discussion. Thanks for listening and thanks for joining me today, Natalia.
Natalia Angelini: Thanks Rick. It was nice talking with you and we look forward to hearing from our listeners. And until then…until next time, take care.
This has been Hull on Estates with the lawyers of Hull & Hull. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.
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