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Listen to Administration of the Assets of the Estate

This week on Hull on Estates and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana discuss things to consider when administrating the assets of an estate and point out burdens of being and executor.

Comments? Send us an email at hullandhull@gmail.com, call us on the comment line at 206-457-1985 or leave us a comment on the Hull on Estates and Succession Planning blog.

Administration of the Assets of the Estate - Hull on Estate and Succession Planning Podcast #107

Posted on April 8^th, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi, and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning.  You’re listening to Episode #107 of our podcast on Tuesday, April 8^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by

Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada, from the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  Here are Ian and Suzana.

Ian Hull: Hi Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi there Ian, how are you today?

Ian Hull: Just terrific, thanks.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s good. We just want to take this opportunity before we get into the substance of our podcast to just remind our listeners that if they would like to leave us a comment, they can feel free to give us a call at 206-457-1985.

Ian Hull: And, of course, feel free to chase down our blog or send in a comment to hullandhull@gmail.com and the webpage hullandhull.com gets you a quick link to our blog which we’re posting almost every day on and had some interesting comments last week from our posts, so feel free to engage in the social media adventure.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s great. Now I know, Ian, that you actually were podcasting solo last week because I couldn’t be here to join you and I thought you did a great discussion of your recent attendance at a seminar.  And so I thought what we might do is to, sort of, pick up from where we had left off at the end of our last podcast.

Ian Hull: Well, that sounds great. I do want to say one thing since that podcast was launched into the internet, I’ve had some interesting feedback that seminar was well received. Talked to a couple people that actually were at it and not particular, just what, of course, I said, which was hopefully helpful.  But some of the other speakers and the twists that were being put on the whole elder law scenarios that we’re going to be faced with more and more in society. So speaking of society, we have to refocus a little bit this week and talk about some issues relating to the administration of the assets of the estate and our ongoing slug through the burdens of being an executor.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we had at the last time spoken about the fact that we were looking at a situation where we suddenly had the Certificate of Appointment in hands, this probate document, and we were looking at some of the things that we take in terms of initial steps as an executor, once that document was obtained.

Ian Hull: So we’ve talked about this in the past and we’ve talked about personal effects, talked about the fact that we think it’s so important to make sure you document it, maybe take a video quickly of all of the personal effects or have some photos or whatever.  But once you’ve inventoried it, what do we do about getting the action steps to be taken to actually transfer or sell those personal effects?

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, Ian, in accordance with the terms of the Will the executor is going to want to deliver the individual personal effects directly to the beneficiaries who are named in there, and then obtain a receipt from those individuals, so as to have the protection of the fact that that gift or that bequest was made and that it was received by the recipient of it.

Ian Hull: And that receipt can’t go understated in the importance of that. We… I just had an estate that I recently administered and I personally made sure that the jewellery items that were delivered and they weren’t phenomenally expensive jewellery items, but they were very personal items and ones that, you know, the sort of chain of the ring from the deceased to you to the beneficiary is so very important.  And a lot of times, I’ll just say to clients, look if you’re the executor, don’t break the chain, so to speak. Once it’s in your hands, make sure that you’ve got full control of it and that you do not release it until you get a proper receipt.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then I guess, of course, there’s going to be personal effects that aren’t specifically spoken to and in those circumstances, an executor is going to want to arrange for the sale of those items.

Ian Hull: Absolutely. Now the sale of the items, too, can create its own spicy tension within the administration of an estate. One of the things that I tell my clients is that they want to quickly go on the internet, take a couple of minutes and search out what the sort of the star local sales avenues are. I mean, the classic one is Sotheby’s.  But not all of us have, you know, John Lennon pianos to put up for sale. But, you know, Sotheby’s has an operation in Ontario, Ritchies has an operation, Waddingtons is another one.  All of these houses are wonderful.  They do it so professionally and most of them will do sort of the gambit. If you give them – some of the stuff isn’t worth a lot but some of it is, they’ll often inventory it all for you and give you some help on how to deal with the stuff that is more modestly priced.  And then put in up for sale properly and by a third party, so you can’t get accused of messing up on the sale of selling that painting that sat over Grandma’s dining room table for 30 years, for a song. You’ll get the professional advisor telling you what its worth. They have some…like I know I just dealt with one from Waddington’s.  They have phenomenal internal resources like experts on Canadian art for certain periods that they’ll bring in and they won’t throw these things into the market, sort of, willy nilly.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s great, Ian. And it’s something certainly to keep in mind because there’s always going to be these things that need to be dealt with. Another thing that I try to remind people of is the fact that once you’re in this stage where you’re actually liquidating or transferring assets, you want to consider also cancelling any insurance on those assets that you’ve maintained up until the time that that transfer is actually done.

Ian Hull: Geez, that’s a good point, you know.  I had an estate recently that had a bunch of art and the insurance on the art was almost an overwhelming cost to the estate and the beneficiaries were not happy that it took an extra month to cancel the insurance.  So that’s a really good point.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And I think it sort of follows from the checklist that we’ve suggested that people maintain because it sort of brings you back to think about that and you can take care of it right at that time.

Ian Hull: Okay, so that deals with personal effects. What about cars and automobiles and that sort of thing?

Suzana Popovic-Montag: I think we’re looking at the same kind of situation there where there’s going to either be a transfer to someone who’s actually named in a Will or there’s going to be the arrangements made by the trustee to actually sell the vehicle.

Ian Hull: And again, I guess, your good advice on the insurances on that one as well.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so if we’ve looked at personal effects, we’ve dealt with automobiles, then those are usually the big items there.  Then we just are left with whatever’s ultimately left there and how we actually go about realizing those last things.

Ian Hull: And liquidating deposits and getting the, sort of, estate bank account established as quickly as possible is crucial.  And that, sort of, takes us into what we’ll start to call, I guess, the business side of the estate administration. The one side of many estates that we see the most problems in and that is, dealing with the accounting.

So first of all, setting up the bank account. You need your probate typically, to get a bank account opened. So you’ve got your probate certificate, you go to a bank.  You want, I tell my clients to go to a branch that’s convenient to you because you will be surprised how often you will have to actually deal directly with the bank. This isn’t always like us when people are alive, they can do internet banking, they can do, you know, cross-city branch banking, and so on.  You want to establish, I tell my clients anyway, to set up an account that is easy for you to get to.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And once you’ve done that, you also want to think about setting up your bookkeeping mechanism because as an executor or a trustee, you’ve got to maintain very good records so that at the end of the day, if you’re called upon it, you can account to the beneficiaries of the estate or the trust.

Ian Hull: And it’s really at this time that I tell my clients to think about the end game now. You’ve been so careful so far, right from the moment of death or the moment you were told you had the job, you’ve been so careful.  This is really the turning point to maintain a level of almost perfection. You have to have receipts for everything, no money can go astray, obviously.  But your system is crucial.  And if you’ve got a situation where it is likely that you’re going to need to ultimately go to Court and pass the accounts, then now is the time to establish that system early, as opposed to remaking it at a later time when you don’t have all of the information at your fingertips.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so, Ian, in terms of advice, how do you usually tell your clients that they go about setting up this mechanism?

Ian Hull: Well, I think they’ve got to get good advice and accountants and lawyers know how to create estate format accounts. And it doesn’t hurt to (a) learn a bit about that and (b) set up a system that can be easily transferred into an estate format scenario.  Because the estate format accounting itself is – it can be something that is new to individuals who are not, you know, savvy on this form of accounts. It’s not rocket science, but it is a different form of accounts that you need to consider.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And my clients are always surprised, Ian, by how different estate accounts are from normal financial statements. And I think that’s part of the education process that we provide to them about how these things are maintained.

Ian Hull: And I think, really, as I say, this is such an important turning point and starting point to the process, that I think it’s worth getting some initial advice on this and it may cost some money, but its all money well spent.

Alright, so now that we’re setting up the bookkeeping, we’re setting up the estate accounts. Let’s talk about, sort of, some of the long-term business aspects of administering this estate.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: In a situation where you’ve got a business that actually had been run by the deceased, in this instance, you’ve got to meet with the estate trustees and create, sort of, a plan going forward of how you’re going to either continue running that business or basically hiring individuals to do that for you as an estate trustee.

Ian Hull: Alright and that, of course, turns us at this point, we’ll wind up because it’s a good turning point in terms of how we will talk about the business side of things and let’s start focusing on some of the investment side that the – what people are going to expect you to be doing with the investments and what you’re expected to do on that front, depending on the estate itself. So I think that’s a good spot to wind up this podcast.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Okay, and just another reminder to people who’d like to call in and provide us with their comments, to feel free to call us at 206-457-1985.

Ian Hull: And, of course, go to our webpage at hullandhull.com and work your way into it. Feel free to e-mail us at hullandhull@gmail.com and watch our blog. Thanks very much.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Thanks to you, Ian.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag.  The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service.  It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning.  It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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Listen to Applying for Probate

This week on Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana talk about the applying for probate. They discuss some of the ways that estate administrators can simplify the process.

Comments? Send us an email at hullandhull@gmail.com, post a comment on our blog at http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/ or leave us a message on our comment line at 206-457-1985.

Applying for Probate - Hull on Estate and Succession Planning Podcast #105

Posted on March 25^th, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. You’re listening to Episode #105 of our podcast on Tuesday, March 25^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by

Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada, from the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  Here are Ian and Suzana.

Ian Hull: Hi Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi there Ian. How are you today?

Ian Hull: Just great, thanks. Glad to be podcasting again with you. Missed you last week.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Sorry about that.

Ian Hull: No it’s – these things happen.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: They do.

Ian Hull: Don’t forget to all those who are listening, feel free to call us at 206-457-1985.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Or if you’d like to drop us an e-mail at hullandhull@gmail.com or, of course, you can visit our blog at estatelaw.hullandhull.com.

Ian Hull: Okay, we’ve been trying to follow through the process of an estate administration per se, and what it takes to get the job. One of the things that we talked a little bit about, not at the last podcast but the one before, was the application for probate itself. And I thought what we could do today is, sort of, talk about some of the things that might come as a surprise to people just how much notice you have to give to the beneficiaries.  And just who needs to be given notice in the application process and some of the other, sort of, what I might consider more mundane steps you have to take in the process. We talked, not in the last podcast but the one before though, about the bonding requirements in Ontario anyway, the probate tax that gets calculated.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we didn’t mention the fact though, Ian, that when you don’t necessarily know the exact value of the estate and you can’t necessarily calculate the administration tax that will be payable, you can still file on the basis of an estimated value for the estate, as long as you provide an undertaking that our statute here in Ontario provides for.

Ian Hull: That’s right.  It gives us some flexibility and so it means that you don’t have to know the numbers right down to the dollar.

Alright one of the next things that I think of whenever I’m applying for probate is I think of the Affidavit of Execution.  And that’s because you need it, it is such a vital document. I mean, when you’re dealing with an estate, to administer an estate, you have to have a valid Will and you have to prove that it was properly executed with two witnesses in the room at the same time as the deceased. So the Affidavit of Execution is something you want to track down and sometimes that’s not as easy as it sounds.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that Affidavit, for people who aren’t familiar with it, is an Affidavit by those witnesses to the Will saying that they were actually present for the signing of the Will and that all the formalities required by the legislation were abided by.

Ian Hull: And some difficulties can arise because, for example, say the Will was done 20 years ago and you don’t have any real information about the Will and the Affidavit wasn’t signed at the time, you can get into some trouble with the Affidavit of Execution in the sense of trying to track it down. So I always remind my clients whenever they do sign their Will up, make sure that they have asked their lawyer where the Affidavit of Execution is and make sure it’s in a secure place, because it is a vital part of the application itself.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s for sure, Ian. And then once you’ve got all this documentation in place and this information all put together, then what you’ll typically do is actually meet with the lawyer and have the documentation signed up.

Ian Hull: Now in Ontario, and I think it’s a useful exercise to go through because when you do this for the first time, I find people are often surprised at just what needs to be involved in an application for probate. Now let’s talk a little bit about some of the people that get notice of the application itself.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that basically is all of the beneficiaries who are named in the Will. And so if you’ve got a beneficiary who’s actually a charity, in that instance, you have to serve not only the charity itself but also possibly the Public Guardian and Trustee as well.

Ian Hull: And people forget that when you have made a gift of a charity, what you’ve done is you’ve created a new layer of bureaucracy in the probate process and in the accounting process, if the gift is part of the residue, and we’ll get into more of that later. But the point is, is that it’s wonderful to give to charities in the Will but I notice in the last 10 years certainly, the taxing authorities in Canada have started to encourage us to gift during your lifetime. You get better tax advantages than you used to for that gifting and, quite frankly, on death, the gift to a charity can be a bit cumbersome. It’s not overwhelming, but it’s just another layer in the process.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And another government institution that you serve with this notice of application, if you have minors who are beneficiaries of an estate, is the Children’s Lawyer’s office here in Ontario. And that is, again, if you’ve got a minor who’s a beneficiary of an estate, you’ll serve the Children’s Lawyer on their behalf, as well as the parents of the minor.

Ian Hull: So we can’t forget, too, because a lot of these Wills will have what we call is a gift-over provision and they will have a situation where there may be a trust or something of that nature, and so there are minor beneficiaries’ interests that need to be protected. And the governing authority gets a copy of it, opens a file and then is in a position to audit your administration, so to speak. So you put them on notice of the Will and you put them on notice of the financial interests.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And if you have beneficiaries who are actually not capable, whether if mentally or otherwise, you may have to also, in those circumstances, serve their guardian of property or their attorney for property, if they’ve got one that you are aware of.

Ian Hull: That’s a really good point because sometimes people overlook that aspect of the administration.

Now the final step, of course, is to go up to the Court and file the application itself, and that can be done by your lawyer or it can be done by yourself, it depends in your circumstances. So let’s just take a minute now and we’ve filed for the application, we’ve covered off and maybe been a bit surprised at who all knows about the information.  And I say that because, in Ontario anyway, we’re required to say and provide a copy of the Will to the individual who’s a beneficiary. But we’re not necessarily required to put the amount of the estate. You actually file an Affidavit of Execution with the Court and you also file an Affidavit verifying the amount of the assets when you file in Ontario, so that it’s a public document, but it is not necessarily produced in this first series of disclosure steps. So it’s one of those things that I often will say to my clients “Look, you know what, it’s a public record. Maybe you want to go up to the Court, get a copy of the Affidavit that they file in support because in it will tell you the value of the estate and you might get some answers very quickly as to what’s going on.”

Alright, so we’ve got our Certificate of Appointment and now what do we do? This is the document we’ve all been waiting for, so to speak, and we are in a position now to start to show it to third parties to start to meaningfully administer the estate and get access to certain aspects of the assets that we haven’t been – we’ve been prevented from getting until we got this famous probate document.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And so one of the first things that my clients will normally want is to have a couple of copies, notarial copies, you know, our Court of approval or seal of approval on that document, indicating that it is a valid probate document that they can then take and use with the authorities who actually require it, in order to help them collect and administer the assets of the estate.

Ian Hull: And that lets you get into various… gets access to various assets. It’s like getting into a safety deposit box, for example.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And also closing out bank accounts as well.

Ian Hull: And we talked about in other podcasts and the problem is, is that the banks and third parties will not necessarily deal with you as executor without this formal order.  And banks are classics for that and the brokerage companies are classics for that because they want to know that they’re dealing with the right person before they start to release the funds to the estate bank account. Often the bank will also insist on probate before they’ll even open an estate account. So that’s case by case, but that’s something that, you know, as I say, it’s great to have the document now, get lots of notarial copies of it, use them properly and you’re in a position to start to really meaningfully administer the assets.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that’s particularly important when you’re trying to collect life insurance policies which typically are in large denominations. And so you’ve now got that Certificate that you can give to the institutions in order to be able to get those funds.

Ian Hull: Another one asset that we sometimes run into glitches on is RRSPs, here in Canada, and again, with our probate documentation, we can usually complete that transfer fairly quickly.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: As part and parcel of that, too, just other kinds of securities where you have to provide the transfer agents with proof of the fact that you’ve got authority to deal with those assets. And again, you’ve now got it in hand and you can give that to them in order to collect those assets as well.

Ian Hull: And, of course, one of the fundamental assets that you have to concern yourself with is the transfer of real estate. And with many different jurisdictions, it is mixed in terms of whether or not you need probate or not. But I would say, sort of, as a good general rule, probate is almost always required. And so now we can start to transfer and sell real estate.

Okay, now one little twist that some people don’t often think of the beauty of probate and before we get into some of this, what I will call some of the other action items that you can take the steps on with the probate document, are things like dealing with personal affects. And for our next podcast, I want to start to…we’ll talk a little bit about not just personal affects but automobiles, talk about other assets that we can now start to administer with the document in hand, that being probate, and with authority that we’ve been waiting for.

So thanks so much Suzana. Good to have you back and we look forward to our next podcast.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Thanks to you, too, Ian. And just a reminder to our listeners, that we’ve got our comment line set up at 206-457-1985.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag.  The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service.  It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning.  It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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