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<copyright>Copyright 2008</copyright>
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<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:42:41 -0500</pubDate>
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<title>Go Away And Don&apos;t Come Back!</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>&quot;Some day, a wise person in a position of authority will realize that a court of law is not the best forum for deciding custody and access disputes, where principles of common sense masquerade as principles of law.&quot; - Mr. Justice Joseph Quinn as quoted in the <a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080508.wdivorce08/BNStory/National/home">Globe and Mail</a>.</p><p>Until that day, the&nbsp;fighting parents who appeared before&nbsp;Mr. Justice Quinn&nbsp;have been barred from court unless they obtain special leave.&nbsp; Looking at the context, it's hard to&nbsp;argue they did not earn it: 25 court orders from 12 different judges over 7 years, three contempt motions, one suspended sentence, 12 different lawyers, 2000 pages of court filings.&nbsp; </p><p>An apparent lack of respect for the rulings of the Court by both litigants was a factor in this extraordinary Order.&nbsp;&nbsp; As Mr. Justice Quinn is quoted, &quot;[b]oth sides have shown an inability to abide by court orders such that their access to this court should be restricted by the requirement to obtain leave.&quot;&nbsp; </p><p>Mr. Justice Quinn is further quoted as saying &quot;[t]he parties have gorged on court resources as if the legal system were their private banquet table. It must not happen again,&quot;.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is easy to forget that courts are very expensive operations: rent, upkeep and&nbsp;salaries.&nbsp; An hour before a judge in court is not cheap for society, whether or not the litigants&nbsp;are represented by lawyers.&nbsp; As a purely editorial comment, it is heartening to see principled recognition of this fact.</p><p>The father, perhaps unsurprisingly given the reported facts, is apparently considering an appeal.</p><p>Enjoy&nbsp;the weekend,</p><p>Chris Graham</p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2008/05/articles/topics/estate-trust/go-away-and-dont-come-back/</link>
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<category> TOPICS</category><category>Estate &amp; Trust</category><category>Litigation</category><category>access</category><category>access to justice</category><category>child support</category><category>contempt</category><category>family law litigation</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 09 May 2008 04:00:00 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>

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<title>Court Order Compliance - Hull on Estates #82</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/kirsten/HOE_82_FINAL.mp3">Listen to Court Order Compliance</a></p><p>This week on Hull on Estates, Sean Graham and Justin deVries talk about court order compliance, contempt and enforcement of court orders in general.</p>]]><![CDATA[<p><p class="MsoNormal" style="BACKGROUND: #cbca98; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-ALIGN: justify; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-outline-level: 2"><span lang="EN" style="FONT-SIZE: 17pt; COLOR: #323c3c; mso-font-kerning: 18.0pt; mso-ansi-language: EN"><font face="Times New Roman">Court Order Compliance - </font><a title="Permalink for Hull on Estate and Succession Planning Podcast #20 - Claims against the Estate" href="http://www.hullandhull.com/podcast/?p=139"><span style="COLOR: #333333; TEXT-DECORATION: none; text-underline: none"><font face="Times New Roman">Hull on Estates Podcast #82 </font></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span class="author"><span lang="EN-CA">Posted on </span></span><st1:date year="2007" day="23" month="10"><span class="author"><span lang="EN-CA">October 23<sup>rd</sup>, 2007</span></span></st1:date><span class="author"><span lang="EN-CA"> by <a href="http://www.hullandhull.com/who_we_are.html"><font color="#800080">Hull &amp; Hull LLP</font></a></span></span><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-CA">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Hello and welcome to </span><st1:city><st1:place><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-CA"> on Estates #82 on </span><st1:date year="2007" day="23" month="10"><span lang="EN-CA">Tuesday, October 23<sup>rd</sup>, 2007</span></st1:date><span lang="EN-CA">.</span></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Welcome to </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"> on Estates, a series of podcasts for the Canadian legal community dealing with issues and insights surrounding estate planning in </span></em><st1:country-region><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Canada</span></em></st1:place></st1:country-region><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>Hosted by the lawyers of </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"> &amp; </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">, the podcast will touch on some key considerations when planning estates and Wills.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Now, here are today&rsquo;s hosts.<o:p></o:p></span></em></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>This is Sean Graham.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I&rsquo;m here with Justin de Vries. Hi <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>Justin.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Hi Sean, this is a good opportunity for us.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>We&rsquo;ve never podcast together, so this is our first one.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And today we&rsquo;re going to take a topic that, I suppose on paper seems a little bit dry, but hopefully we&rsquo;ll make it more exciting. And it&rsquo;s really all about enforcing Judgments and Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And because it&rsquo;s such a large topic, we&rsquo;re really going to look at the enforcement of or recovery of money Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So that&rsquo;s what we&rsquo;re looking at today, money Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>There&rsquo;s other things that you can try to recover or enforce when it comes to a Court Order, but today is money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And that includes Judgment and Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span></font></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Now, in our world, as you said Sean, a lot of things settle.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Yeah, and once they settle, often you will head off to Court as a condition of settlement and get Court approval of the settlement and then the question is, do the parties then comply with the terms of the settlement.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And it does seem like a dry topic, compliance with Court Orders, perhaps to lawyers, but for a client who has a Judgment and thinks that that&rsquo;s the end of the litigation and finds out, uh-oh, there&rsquo;s other steps we have to enforce, it&rsquo;s anything but dry to them.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-CA">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And it is possible in the estate context to issue a Statement of Claim and get default judgment against an estate and then trying to enforce that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But I think often where I see it is trying to enforce costs Orders that there has been some serious litigation about a preliminary issue.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Ultimately one party is successful and the other party then essentially disappears or is not defending or prosecuting the litigation.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So how do you collect on a cost Order?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And I know, Sean, that you&rsquo;ve had some experience with contempt Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>There&rsquo;s a couple of options a party has if they want to enforce the payment or recovery of money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>One is a Writ of Seizure and </span><st1:city><st1:place><span lang="EN-CA">Sale</span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-CA">, there&rsquo;s garnishment, that&rsquo;s also well known. And you can even appoint a Receiver if need be and that&rsquo;s more when you&rsquo;re dealing with a company.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>If you&rsquo;d like to try to enforce an Order for the recovery or possession of land which you can see in a settlement, that&rsquo;s by a Writ of Possession.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Or an Order for the recovery or possession of personal property other than money, that is enforced by a Writ of Delivery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So the bottom line is that the Rules, and it&rsquo;s largely Rule 60, deals with, and when I say Rule, it&rsquo;s the Rules of Civil Procedure, it largely deals with the recovery of money in our instance and then also the enforcement of Court Orders generally.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And Sean, why don&rsquo;t you talk a little bit about the contempt proceeding that you can bring.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>That&rsquo;s been blogged on before and we&rsquo;ve podcast it, but just as a quick thumbnail sketch for the listeners.</span></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>For sure.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Thanks Justin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Contempt is basically, I guess all these enforcement Orders are kind of a last resort.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But contempt is certainly that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Contempt is generally not available if the only Order you&rsquo;re trying to enforce is the payment of money.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>A contempt is generally for an Order requiring a person to do an act or abstain from doing an act which has been mandated by a Court Order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And the problem with a contempt often, from my point of view, is it&rsquo;s not the most practical measure because there&rsquo;s all kinds of relief you can ask for in contempt including jail, but also including fines.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And then the problem you have is if someone&rsquo;s not complying with an Order to begin with, the question is are they going to comply with the contempt Order?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So often it will wake someone up, and they&rsquo;ll start to co-operate.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But practically speaking, it&rsquo;s a tough one.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And in a civil context, Sean, how far is the Court willing to go?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>In your experience, have you seen the Court issue a warrant for someone&rsquo;s arrest ultimately if they ignore a Court Order for the payment of money?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Or is it more likely that they&rsquo;re going to get a fine?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But what&rsquo;s your thought on that?</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I&rsquo;ve never, having done several of these now, I&rsquo;ve never once had a judge throw someone in jail.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I&rsquo;ve heard the judge threaten to do it and then work on the other remedies.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Certainly fines are fairly commonplace and certainly costs Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Not necessarily a fine but a genuine costs Order to genuinely pay the entirety of the costs, I&rsquo;ve seen that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But again, throwing someone in jail, aside from stressing the seriousness of a Court Order, doesn&rsquo;t actually help them comply with the prior Order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So practically speaking, it can be satisfying to see someone you&rsquo;re very angry with thrown in jail, but it doesn&rsquo;t actually, practically speaking, help much.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><span lang="EN-CA">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Right, and what I&rsquo;ve seen is fines on a per diem or by day basis.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>That usually gets people&rsquo;s attention.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And often you can ask when you&rsquo;re in front of a judge to enforce an Order of the Court that there be a larger Order that you can seize any assets that they may have in a bank account and if you come, you know, forewarned with some sort of or forearmed with information about what the bank account is, you may get that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I recently did a Writ of Seizure and </span><st1:city><st1:place><span lang="EN-CA">Sale</span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-CA"> in respect of land.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And the one thing that strikes me in that context is that you really have to read the Rules because each regime, be it garnishment, be it the recovery of land, be it the recovery of personal property, or trying to get money, has it&rsquo;s own way forward.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And our system works very much on notice unfortunately.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So you are giving a debtor notice of what you&rsquo;re doing and an opportunity really, in a perfect world to pay some people may say, it&rsquo;s a perfect opportunity to take the money and run.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So you have to be careful but with the sale and seizure of land, for example, you can&rsquo;t do anything once you get your Writ of Seizure and </span><st1:city><st1:place><span lang="EN-CA">Sale</span></st1:place></st1:city><span lang="EN-CA"> for land for 4 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>You just have to sort of sit on it, which seems a bit bizarre. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>And then you can only begin to enforce it, as I said, after the 4 months and no sale can take place until 6 months.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So again, the idea is that someone may have an opportunity to satisfy any judgment by selling the land.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Now, I was trying to enforce a costs Order so I was really after money, I just knew that this person had some land that I was trying to get the Sheriff to seize and then sell.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And then even after the 6 months is over, and the sale takes place, the debtor has to have at least 30 days&rsquo; notice of the sale.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And one of the things you have to do as well, if there&rsquo;s a mortgage on the property, you have to write to the mortgagee, in other words, the one with the money, to say listen, I&rsquo;m about to seize this property or the Sheriff is and so some serious business is going to happen.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>So there seems to be a lot of opportunity for the debtor to get away with things but bottom line is there&rsquo;s a regime that has to be followed in order to do that.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>One thing I find, Sean, I don&rsquo;t know what your experience is, with respect to Rule 60.12, which really allows a Court wide discretion really within the litigation. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>If someone is not complying with an Order, not paying costs, for example, and we all know about the concept of coming to Courts with clean hands if you&rsquo;re asking for relief.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But 60.12 really allows a judge to craft any Order to put the litigation at a standstill, to strike the Claim, strike a defence, make whatever Order is just.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And often that will get the attention of a party.</span></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Yeah, honestly I haven&rsquo;t used 60.12 recently.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>The hope is, obviously, that especially in estate litigation where we have our Orders giving directions which really lay out the litigation at the beginning, that hopefully you won&rsquo;t have to rely on them.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But there certainly, I can think of instances where it&hellip;maybe I need to bring it and for sure the broader the Rule it seems to me, at least in estate litigation, the broader the Rule, the more discretion allowed to the judge, the more you can get away from the strict technicalities of the Rule and allow the judge to strike at the practical heart of it.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And I think that that 60.12 seems to me to be a great Rule to do that.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>One of the things as well is that, you know, in the estate world, we still occasionally have discoveries.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And if someone is not showing up and you&rsquo;re getting your Certificate of Non-Attendance, 60.12 is one of those, what I call, basket rules that you should really throw in because it allows you to say to the judge listen, the guy didn&rsquo;t show up, I want an Order mandating him to show up and just so you know judge, you have not only the ability under a specific rule for that, but you have a larger discretion here that you can do whatever you want.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>For example, if he doesn&rsquo;t show up the second time, the defence is struck or the claim is struck.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Or if it&rsquo;s an Order for directions, that there&rsquo;s going to be a hearing as to damages, you know, those kind of options are available.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And just to finish off too I think we should look at the idea of Rule 60.18 which allows a creditor to examine a debtor to really see what their assets are.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And it&rsquo;s a great way to needle someone because you&rsquo;re really getting them in to ask about their assets, so you can get at their money, their assets, so that you can use one of the enforcement procedures that we just talked about, to try to get paid.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Yeah, and you almost wonder, the threat to use that particular Rule in some cases is probably going to get you there.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>They may comply with the Order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>They may not want to tell you the in&rsquo;s and out&rsquo;s of their financial dealings.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And that could be actually as frightening as a Court Order or even a contempt motion, in some cases.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Justin de Vries: Yeah, no, it&rsquo;s a very good point I think.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>They may have a lot more money there that they don&rsquo;t want to have you know anything about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And there&rsquo;s going to be a lot of leeway granted to you.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I mean it&rsquo;s a normal examination in the sense that there can be a refusal, you&rsquo;d have to go to Court and get the, you know, refusal answered if it&rsquo;s a genuine question you&rsquo;re asking.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And of course costs are really going to be, you know, dealt in your favour generally because, you know, you&rsquo;re really trying to enforce an Order.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And that&rsquo;s Rule 60.19 which deals with the costs of all this enforcement.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And maybe I can ask, Justin, in your experience, and obviously having been through the costs of getting the original Order, the original judgment, whether it&rsquo;s on a negotiated basis or, you know, all the way through trial, what&rsquo;s been your experience about the success of getting your costs for not only the proceedings, but the further enforcement steps you&rsquo;ve had to take?</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I think getting costs of the enforcement is not really an issue. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>Rule 60.19, I think a judge will want to make sure that the administration of justice is not brought into disrepute by people ignoring Court Orders.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Now they give, as you pointed out in the contempt world, they give people lots of chances.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But eventually the Court&rsquo;s patience does come to an end, but having an extra chance or a second try doesn&rsquo;t mean that you don&rsquo;t get your costs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>I don&rsquo;t think it allows you obviously to go and visit earlier costs or earlier Orders that you got to try to get your costs.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>What it deals with is Rule 60.19 is the current costs incurred.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Then I don&rsquo;t see any reason why you wouldn&rsquo;t get those on a substantial indemnity basis, payable forthwith and with interest owing in due course.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But again, the substantial indemnity&hellip;well not again but&hellip;the substantial indemnity may not, for the client themselves, it may not be the full freight and that&rsquo;s consistently causing concern to my clients anyway.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Yeah, I think what people forget is that it&rsquo;s substantial indemnity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>It&rsquo;s not complete indemnity and with any kind of costs award, it&rsquo;s wide discretion of the Court.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Appeal Courts won&rsquo;t really interfere in discretion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>It just becomes a dog&rsquo;s breakfast if they do.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>It really renders a judge of first instance without much power if the discretion is taken away.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And clients have to know, I generally say for partial indemnity, I think you&rsquo;re looking between 30% and 60%.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>And I think for substantial indemnity, it can be anywhere from 75% to, you know, in the rare instances, 100%.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But it can be as low as 75% and people have to keep that in mind, that the system is designed so that you really don&rsquo;t get full recovery.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>But I think substantial indemnity when trying to enforce an award of money or to recover money, you&rsquo;re going to get closer to that 100% than you&rsquo;re going to get in many other instances because a judge and the Courts will not like to see their Orders ignored.</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Sean Graham:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Well, I think that&rsquo;s hopefully a good primer on these issues.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Thanks so much Justin for speaking to these things.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span></font></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Justin de Vries:<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>Thanks Sean and I&rsquo;ll look forward to doing our next one together. <o:p></o:p></font></font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">This has been </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"> on Estates with the lawyers of </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"> &amp; </span></em><st1:city><st1:place><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">Hull</span></em></st1:place></st1:city><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA">.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; </span>It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.<o:p></o:p></span></em></font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">To listen to other podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at </font><a href="http://www.hullandhull.com/"><font face="Times New Roman" color="#800080" size="3">www.hullandhull.com</font></a><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">.<o:p></o:p></font></font></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><font size="3"><font face="Times New Roman">Our theme music is Upper Structure by DJ AKid <span style="mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</span>and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.<o:p></o:p></font></font></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><em style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><span lang="EN-CA"><o:p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">&nbsp;</font></o:p></span></em></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-CA"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">/mem</font></span></p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2007/10/articles/podcasts-audio/court-order-compliance-hull-on-estates-82/</link>
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<category> PODCASTS / AUDIO</category><category> PODCASTS / TRANSCRIBED</category><category>Archived BLOG POSTS - Hull on Estates</category><category>Hull on Estates</category><category>Hull on Estates</category><category>compliance</category><category>contempt</category><category>court order</category><category>recovery</category>
<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:00:20 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>
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<title>TO BE IN CONTEMPT OR NOT TO BE IN CONTEMPT REGARDING ORDERS REQUIRING PAYMENTS OF MONEY - THAT IS THE QUESTION  PART I OF II</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p><span><font>In <em>Forest v. Lacroix Estate</em> (2000), 187 D.L.R. (4<sup>th</sup>) 280, the Ontario Court of Appeal (&ldquo;C.A.&rdquo;) affirmed that Rule 60.11 contempt orders cannot be used to enforce orders for payment of money.&nbsp;</font></span></p><p><span><font>In <em>Forest</em>, a testator had named his son trustee and sole beneficiary of his estate having no provisions for his common-law wife of 19 years.&nbsp;Despite there being an order specifically prohibiting the dissipation of the estate, the son dissipated a significant amount of the estate assets.&nbsp;The Trial Judge having made a finding of contempt, ordered the son committed to jail for 9 months unless he purged contempt within 28 days by paying the common-law wife.&nbsp;The Court of Appeal noted, following a review of the law, that there are other means by which support orders can be enforced.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</font></span></p><p>In 2002, the C.A. in <em>Murano v. Murano</em>, [2002] O.J. No. 3632 relied on the reasoning in <em>Forest </em>and held that there was no exception for family law matters.&nbsp;</p><p><span><font>In today&rsquo;s and tomorrow&rsquo;s blog I will touch upon the case of <em>Dickie v. Dickie</em>, [2007] S.C.J. No. 8, [2006] 78 O.R. (3d)1 (Ont. C.A.), in which the C.A. and Supreme Court of Canada (&ldquo;S.C.C&rdquo;) deal with the availability of a contempt motion in respect of the failure of a party to comply with alleged orders requiring the payment of money. </font></span></p><p>Today&rsquo;s blog will set out the background to <em>Dickie</em>; tomorrow&rsquo;s blog will deal with the decisions of the C.A. and the S.C.C. </p><p><span><font>The case involves a dispute between husband and wife. Before the C.A. was the appeal by the husband from an order finding him in contempt of Court for failing to comply with orders requiring him to secure support obligations by providing an irrevocable letter of credit and to post security for costs.&nbsp;The motion Judge imposed a sentence of 45 days in jail for that contempt, which the husband served immediately.&nbsp;The husband pursued his appeal arguing that the motion&rsquo;s Judge had no jurisdiction under Rule 60.11 of the <em>Rules of Civil Procedure</em> to make a contempt order because the underlying orders were orders requiring him to make a payment of money.&nbsp;&nbsp;The wife brought a preliminary motion before the C.A. submitting that the Court should refuse to entertain the appeal because of the husband&rsquo;s wilful disregard for orders of the Court.</font></span></p><p>Thanks for reading.&nbsp;Part II tomorrow.</p><p>Craig</p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2007/08/articles/blog-posts-hull-on-estates/to-be-in-contempt-or-not-to-be-in-contempt-regarding-orders-requiring-payments-of-money-that-is-the-question-part-i-of-ii/</link>
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<category>Archived BLOG POSTS - Hull on Estates</category><category>contempt</category><category>estates</category><category>law</category><category>litigation</category><category>motions</category>
<pubDate>Wed, 01 Aug 2007 00:39:27 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>

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<title>Tips for Managing and Controlling Estate Litigation - Conclusion - Hull on Estates Podcast #63</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p><strong><a href="http://media.libsyn.com/media/kirsten/hoe_63_FINAL.mp3">Listen to &quot;Tips for Managing and Controlling Estate Litigation - Conclusion&quot;</a></strong></p><p><strong>Read the transcribed version of &quot;<u><font color="#0000ff"><a href="http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/hoe63.pdf">Tips for Managing and Controlling Estate Litigation - Conclusion&quot;&quot;</a></font></u></strong><p>During Hull on Estates Podcast #63, Craig Vander Zee and Bianca La Neve discussed various discretionary measures available to a court when making contempt orders. </p><p>Rule 60 of the <a href="http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/900194a_e.htm"><strong>Rules of Civil Procedure</strong></a> was referenced, as well as the decision in <strong><a href="http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/doc/2003/2003canlii49390/2003canlii49390.html">Belanger v. McGrade Estate (2003), 65 O.R. (3d) 829 (Ont. S.C.J.). <br /></a></strong><br /></p><p><strong></strong></p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2007/06/articles/podcasts-audio/hull-on-estates/tips-for-managing-and-controlling-estate-litigation-conclusion-hull-on-estates-podcast-63/</link>
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<category>Estate Litigation</category><category>Hull on Estates</category><category>Hull on Estates</category><category>Rules of Civil Procedure</category><category>contempt</category><category>estate law blog</category><category>legal podcast</category>
<pubDate>Tue, 12 Jun 2007 00:24:25 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>
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<title>Contempt Motions and Estate Litigation - Part V</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>CONTEMPT MOTIONS AND ESTATE LITIGATION &ndash; PART V </p>
<p><br />As I mentioned in yesterday&rsquo;s blog (November 2, 2006), today&rsquo;s blog will note several cases wherein contempt motions were brought in respect of passings of accounts. </p>
<p>In Mesesnel (Attorney of) v. Kumer, [2004] O.J.N. 1834 (Ont. S.C.J.), the Court considered a contempt motion arising from allegations that the accounts prepared by a party did not cover the entire accounting period and the accounts prepared were improper. </p>
<p>In this case, prior to the death of Mesesnel, Donald Steward Mills had apparently been a good friend of Mesesnel and also served as Mesesnel&rsquo;s solicitor and occasional business partner since 1970 and had Power of Attorney over Mesesnel since 1978. An Order was made for the passing of Mills&rsquo; accounts. Mills provided some accounting but it was claimed that the accounting was incomplete as it only went back to a certain date (1996) and that it was not submitted in proper court form. The clarity of the Order was a concern. It read: </p>
<p>&ldquo;4. THIS COURT ORDERS that Donald Stewart Mills provide accounts as required under section 42 of the Act and prepare accounts relating to his management of assets of Mesesnel as required under rule 74, to be provided on or before June 30, 2002 unless otherwise ordered by this court.&rdquo; </p>]]><![CDATA[<p>It was also alleged that Mills, as a solicitor, should have known how to submit the accounts, and that since Mills and Mesesnel were business partners and Mills had Power of Attorney since the 1970&rsquo;s, Mills should have accounted for the period proceeding 1996. Mills&rsquo; position was, amongst other things, that it would be a &ldquo;monumental job&rdquo; to reconstruct most of Mesesnel&rsquo;s business for the past 30 years. </p>
<p>The Court held that it would be foolish for Mills to be ordered to provide the proper passing of all accounts since 1978 simply because of the multiple roles Mills held in Mesesnel&rsquo;s life. The Court wrote that Mills had &ldquo;no duty, at law, to account to the Kumers for all the legal work he did for Mesesnel over the years&hellip;&rdquo; and further that Mills did not wilfully or deliberately violate the original Order. Perhaps equally as important, the Court stated that the parties should have not relied on their own interpretation of the Order but sought clarification if they had questions. </p>
<p>In Krause v. Shkopich, [1998] S.J. No. 276 (Sask Q.B.), the Court, in dismissing a motion for a contempt, that claimed a party had not prepared a complete accounting in respect of the administration of trust property found that concerns surrounding the adequacy and completeness of the accounting were better addressed through the more usual course of requiring production and inspection of documents and proceeding to examination for discovery, if necessary. </p>
<p>In Belanger v. McGrade Estate, (2003), 65 O.R. (3d) 829 (Ont. S.C.J.), a sole estate trustee was found in contempt for a repeated failure to pass accounts and to comply with Court Orders. So grave was the non-compliance that the estate trustee was imprisoned. The estate trustee was released from jail, however, when, after hiring new counsel, it was learned that the estate trustee&rsquo;s original lawyer was the actual cause of the repeated failure to pass accounts (the lawyer had not informed the estate trustee of the multiple Orders requiring the passing of accounts). In removing the contempt Order on the estate trustee, the Court relied on R. 60.11(8) which states, &ldquo;on a motion, a judge may discharge, set aside, vary or give directions in respect of an order under subrule (5) or (6) and may grant such relief and make such other order as is just.&rdquo; </p>
<p>In Steingarten v. Steingarten Estate, [1998 Carswell Ont. 5741] (O.C.J.) affirmed (June 22, 1999), Doc. C.A. C30263 (Ont. C.A.), the Court dealt with an application for contempt arising from an Order directing the respondent to provide the accounting required by an earlier Order of the Court. Since the original Order to pass accounts, the matter had been before the Court on a number of occasions. Despite the directions of the Court, the accounts still did not technically comply with the requirements of the initial Order. With the passage of time and the manner of record keeping, the trustee could not provide an appropriate accounting, despite efforts to do so even with the assistance of a chartered accountant. </p>
<p>The court dismissed the application for contempt noting that the matter had &ldquo;developed into a &lsquo;serious family squabble&rsquo; and the interest of justice would not be served by finding the trustee in contempt.&rdquo; The judge added in his view, contempt had not been established. There was no order as to costs. </p>
<p>When a party defies an Order, an aggressive position by the enforcing party may be the only way to force the other party to comply with the Order. However, as noted in yesterday&rsquo;s blog, and by certain of the above-noted cases, in deciding whether to bring a contempt motion, counsel should consider where bringing such a motion at a certain time best achieves the desired end. </p>
<p>Have a great day. </p>
<p>Craig. <br /></p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2006/11/articles/blog-posts-hull-on-estates/contempt-motions-and-estate-litigation-part-v/</link>
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<category>Archived BLOG POSTS - Hull on Estates</category><category>accounts</category><category>contempt</category><category>estate</category><category>family</category><category>litigation</category><category>pass</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 03 Nov 2006 00:15:48 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>

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<title>Contempt Motions and Estate Litigation - Part III</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p><p dir="ltr" style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">Part V of the <em>Succession Law Reform Act</em> (&ldquo;SLRA&rdquo;) provides the legislative framework for claims by a dependent of an estate. It sets out: </p>
<p>(i) who is a dependent; <br />(ii) what rights a dependant has in relation to the estate; <br />(iii) the circumstances the court should consider in determining the amount of support that should be awarded; and <br />(iv) the kinds of orders the court can make for the satisfaction of a dependent support claim. </p>
<p>Rule 60.11 of the <em>Rules of Civil Procedure</em> explicitly states that a party may pursue a contempt motion in order to pursue those who violate court orders other than for the payment of money. </p>
<p>Some have argued that, even in the face of the language of Rule 60.11, support orders involving the payment of money should be enforceable through a contempt proceeding. </p>
<p>In 2000, in its decision of <em>Forrest v. Lacroix Estate</em> (2000) 187 D.L.R. (4th) 280, (Ont. C.A.) the Court of Appeal set aside a contempt order made as a result of a failure to pay a SLRA dependent support award, affirming that Rule 60.11 does not permit contempt orders for the payment of money. </p>
<p></p>]]><![CDATA[<p>At the contempt proceeding in the <em>Forrest </em>case, the Judge attempted to reason around the language of Rule 60.11 regarding the payment of money in considering the contempt. The testator had named his son trustee and sole beneficiary of his estate, valued at $900,000. The testator died without making provisions for his common law wife of 19 years. The son dissipated the estate assets in the face of a specific order prohibiting dissipation, such that the value of the estate was reduced to $48,000 at trial. The son was ordered to pay the common law wife $300,000 under the SLRA. The wife moved for an order holding the son in contempt of court for failing to pay. The son was ordered committed to jail for nine months unless he purged contempt within 28 days by paying the common law wife. The contempt order was made as the Judge held that such an order was akin to orders enforcing family law support payments, and as it is in the public interest that those who choose to ignore court orders should be punished. </p>
<p>The Court of Appeal, however, after an extensive canvassing of the law, was unequivocal in finding that Rule 60.11 contempt orders cannot be used to enforce orders for payments of money, including the payment of SLRA dependant support awards or for payments under the <em>Family Law Act</em>. </p>
<p>The Court of Appeal&rsquo;s decision in <em>Forrest </em>was followed by the Ontario Court of Appeal in its decision in Murano in 2002. In discussing the requirements for contempt motions under the Family Law Rules, the Court of Appeal adopted the decision in <em>Forrest</em>, writing: </p>
<p>&ldquo;&hellip;the effect of rules 60.05 and 60.11(1)&hellip;is to remove the court&rsquo;s inherent jurisdiction to use the contempt power to enforce an order for the payment of money in cases governed by the Rules&hellip;It was taken as a given that the plain language of 60.05 and 60.11(1) do not permit contempt proceedings under those rules to enforce orders for the payment of money&hellip;I find that the reasoning in Forrest v. Lacroix, is equally applicable to the Family Law Rules.&rdquo; </p>
<p>While contempt motions may not be used to enforce the payment of SLRA dependent support awards, they may still be appropriate to address the failure of a party to transfer assets (other than the payment of money) as required or the failure to act pursuant to an Order in respect of assets (and/or liabilities) in proceedings involving the SLRA. </p>
<p>Have a great day, Craig. <br /></p>]]></description>
<link>http://estatelaw.hullandhull.com/2006/11/articles/blog-posts-hull-on-estates/contempt-motions-and-estate-litigation-part-iii/</link>
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<category>Archived BLOG POSTS - Hull on Estates</category><category>beneficiary</category><category>contempt</category><category>estate</category><category>motions</category><category>support</category>
<pubDate>Wed, 01 Nov 2006 00:03:47 -0500</pubDate>
<author>nonley@hullandhull.com (Hull &amp; Hull LLP)</author>

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