This week on Hull on Estates and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana finish up the discussion on the question of accounting by reviewing deductions from compensation and briefly sum up the procedure of the passing of accounts.

Comments? Send us an email at hullandhull@gmail.com, call us on the comment line at 206-457-1985, or leave us a comment on the Hull on Estate and Succession Planning blog.

Deductions from Compensation - Hull on Estate and Succession Planning Podcast #125

Posted on August 12, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi, and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. You’re listening to Episode #125 of our podcast on Tuesday, August 12^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada. From the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, here are Ian and Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi there, Ian.

Ian Hull:  Hi, Suzana. How are you doing?

Suzana Popovic-Montag: I’m good thank you, how are you?

Ian Hull: Just great. We’re having some fun with this whole question of accounting, and I think I’ve done the numbers, and I think we’re almost done. But before we go through our podcast today, let’s remind everyone, please feel free to call in on our call-in number and our call-in number is of course, 206-457-1985.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Or send us an e-mail at hullandhull@gmail.com or of course, you can visit our blog at estatelaw.hullandhull.com as well. 

Ian Hull: So before we launch into the substantive podcast today, I just wanted to do a couple of things. One, I want to deal with an e-mail that came in and another is I want to just welcome people to listen and look at the, last week we enjoyed Jordan Atin who is our associate counsel here, our Senior Associate Counsel, and he was on Canada AM for four days in a row talking about family feuds and the link to the webpage where CTV is still running the streaming is worth looking at, and we’ll make sure that’s in our show notes.  But Jordan had a great opportunity to talk about family feuds and sort of the issues that arise out of his book, “The Family War” which is co-written by Les Kotzer and of course, my good friend, Barry Fish.

Alright, so we were talking about some of the e-mails. And we had two e-mails last week come in. Both of them were semi-related and so I’m sort of going to merge the two of them together. And the question really comes down to this:  What are we talking about with The Shoebox Effect? And what we’ve been mentioning in the past and what we’re going to talk a little bit about today, because part of our wind-up is the importance of vouchers, is The Shoebox Effect is this. When you are a trustee, no matter what you think, no matter what you do, you will be someday possibly asked to show your receipts and that’s all I’m saying The Shoebox Effect is. Make sure you keep receipts, even if it’s in a shoebox. Your lawyer or your accountant can work on the presentation of it when you ultimately have to go to Court, but keep the receipts. So that was the two questions that came in, actually, both were from different parts of Canada but asking about the same question. So I’m not going to dwell on it other than that and say that when we’re winding up our comments on accounting, please, please, please keep your receipts if you’re a fiduciary.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And just to add one thought to that, Ian, I would also suggest that it’s really helpful to make sure that you document as much as possible everything that you do as a trustee.  And when it comes to exercising your discretion, and if particularly the Will or the trust document allows you to have a broad discretion, to write down your thoughts or your reasoning or the underlying reasons that you decided to do something or not do something and include that in the shoebox that you end up bringing to a lawyer one day possibly.

Ian Hull: That’s a great suggestion and it comes down to, when we’re talking about getting paid for all of these efforts, the deductions from compensation that we briefly talked about in the last podcasts, what can you look to? So we talked about that you can get paid, say approximately 5% as a tariff, so to speak.  And we’ve talked about some of the things we’re going to knock you out from, but one of the easy deductions is the delineation between the executor’s work and lawyer’s work or accountant’s work. And that ties into your comment, Suzana, on docketing, keeping records beyond just the receipts that I talked about.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And things for instance, like the preparation of tax returns, when fees are associated with that, depending on who’s preparing the tax returns and how much those fees are, that’s another thing that might possibly be a deduction from compensation if the trustee for instance is an accountant. And these are situations where a trustee is an accountant or a lawyer that you see most often, where these issues can arise.

Ian Hull: Alright, so another concern that we raise and probably the last deduction from compensation we’ll just mention now, is this whole idea of pre-taking compensation. Under Ontario legislation, if you’re a fiduciary or, as I say, a guardian under the Substitute Decisions Act, they actually allow you to pre-take your compensation, take before you’ve made your efforts. But we’ve talked about in the past the cases, and we’ve talked about them in the show notes as well, the case law that talks about Re: Knoch which we talked about in our previous podcast and others, and we want to be very, very careful about pre-taking, getting paid before you’ve done your work. So that’s an easy deduction.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Ian, just a question that I find often gets asked is whether or not GST is actually payable on executor’s compensation. What are your thoughts about that?

Ian Hull: Well, that’s a great question and it’s a murky area of the law.  And what has happened in the past is you would typically have to look at it case by case. First and foremost, you have to look at the amount of the payment that the compensation is. If it is over $30,000 that you’re being paid in compensation, which could be the case because it’s typically a one-time payment, you may have to pay GST on that income as having rendered services. So it’s really case-by-case. Talk to your accountant, get good advice before you wrap up that issue, but that’s an excellent question and a really important heads-up for people who are accounting and doing compensation work.

Okay, I think we’ve pretty well covered off our accounting in the in-depth form and so we wanted to make sure that we stayed the course and came full circle to our sort of checklist that we’re trying to work through. And one of the things I will say is we’re hopefully going to be changing our format and trying to pick up a video feed for our podcasts which is in the process. Some technology glitches haven’t allowed for it to fall in just yet, but we’re going to be moving into some different topic areas. But one of the topic areas that we have to, I think, just sort of at least wrap up in a minimum way, is the process itself. We’ve talked about the passing of accounts process but let’s talk about the physical steps that are taken because many people don’t understand passing of accounts and what you can expect in the courtroom once we’ve got the Court format accounts.  And my introduction to this, by way of the fact that we’re going to be moving this into an audio, is that we’re going to have our own mini-series on this issue, where we’re really going to flush out these topics.  But I think its worthwhile talking about them briefly now, so that people understand what they’re going to get themselves into once they’ve got these beautifully created Court format accounts.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And procedurally speaking, certainly here in Ontario, the Rules of Civil Procedure will govern what is included in an Application to pass the Court format accounts. And we started when, before we got into this discussion of how we would audit estate accounts or how to prepare a best kind of set of accounts in the circumstances, we talked about the fact that it’s all part of an application process.  And so there will be an actual Court date that’s assigned to the hearing for the return of the executor’s accounts, and you’ll serve a Notice of that application on all the beneficiaries together with, in many circumstances and many situations, a copy of the accounts as well. And the Rules themselves specifically provide what has to be in this Application record and I thought, Ian, it might be good to just sort of flush out some of those specific requirements.

Ian Hull: Alright. Well I think and it’s helpful because it’s not quite as daunting when you get the document itself thrown at you because, as I say, a lot of these accounts are passed in a non-contentious environment.  But it’s legal mumbo-jumbo to some people so you want to make sure you sort of know what you’re getting yourselves into when you get it. And the main document behind the accounts is the Affidavit verifying the accounts, they’re proving that you’re swearing to the truth of the accounts, and that’s the fiduciary sort of statement that says these accounts are true and accurate.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that Affidavit, as I say, is included in the record that is served upon everyone who has a financial interest in the estate. And financial interest in the estate I think we’ve talked about on previous podcasts, has a very broad meaning in the sense that even people with a contingent interest in an estate will be served with the accounts as well.

Ian Hull: And talking about service, we don’t want to forget that there may be government agencies that we have to serve, of course; the Office of the Children’s Lawyer should there be any minor child’s interests, or interests of those who are unborn and unascertained.  And without getting too technical about it, we just want to look at the trust document or the Will and see if there is a trust. And typically if there’s a trust, more often than not, almost certainly in fact, the Children’s Lawyer would be served, that’s the Office of the Children’s Lawyer.  And it’s different in each Ontario jurisdiction, but basically the lawyer in charge of minor interests. Another person to be concerned about serving is

Suzana Popovic-Montag: the Public Guardian and Trustee. That office would be served on behalf of any incapable beneficiaries of the estate. And so just like the Children’s Lawyer protects the minor, the unborn or the unascertained, the Public Guardian and Trustee here in Ontario will represent those incapable beneficiaries.

Ian Hull: So those are just things to keep a heads-up on so that you don’t get out of the box and miss a page of the application process by not putting important entities on notice. Obviously, we come back to our cardinal rule: Read the document, read the Will, read the trust and make sure you’ve served everyone named in that, but the Public Guardian and Trustee and the Office of the Children’s Lawyer, are two entities that aren’t necessarily named and quite often aren’t named, so just a heads-up. 

So I think that gives you sort of a sense of what the document itself, in a friendly environment will be, so I think we’ll wrap up today’s podcast and again reminding you, please feel free to e-mail at hullandhull, h u l l a n d h u l l @gmail.com.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Or feel free to call and leave us an audio comment at 206-457-1985. Thanks very much, Ian.

Ian Hull: Thanks, Suzana.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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Posted on April 29^th, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag:  Hi, and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning.  You’re listening to Episode #110 of our podcast on Tuesday, April 29^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by

Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada, from the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.  Here are Ian and Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi it’s Suzana Popovic-Montag.

Ian Hull: Ian Hull.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And welcome to our podcast. We would just like to take this opportunity at the very beginning to remind you of the fact that we have a call in number for any of our listeners who have any comments on our podcast. Please feel free to call us at 206-457-1985.

Ian Hull: And also I encourage you to send us an e-mail at hullandhull@gmail.com or check out or daily blog which is easily found from our webpage at hullandhull.com.  Well let’s start working through some issues on the estate administration.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s great Ian, we shall, but I just wanted to take a quick opportunity to let our listeners know that by the time this podcast is up, you will have done yet another appearance on a great show that’s called “Strictly Legal”, that is hosted by Michael Cochrane and for people who are interested in hearing Ian speak about issues of Estate and Trust matters in a more general all encompassing fashion, I highly recommend you to that show.

Ian Hull: Well thanks Suzana, its fun, it’s a great show. I’m looking forward to it. It’s thrown up on a video stream after on Business News Network, BNN Network so, it’s good fun.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Good for you Ian.

Ian Hull: Alright, so where we left off in our last podcast was we were still struggling through some tax stuff because it is tax time here in Canada.  So we get a little focused on that and the easiest, I find, with files, the easiest criticism of any executor administering an estate is that they botched the tax filings or did any of the tax related stuff and so let’s talk a little bit about that.  But also let’s talk about the fact that, you know, again, if you’re not the expert in the tax side of things, get help.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s for sure.

Ian Hull: So we mentioned the T1 terminal income tax return which is due and then we talked a little about how you dovetail in an interim distribution encouraging the party, the executors, I try to encourage my client, the executors. to get the money flowing as quickly as possible, knowing the restrictions that are out there, because there are some, we can’t just simply send it out.  But as soon as is safe, send it out with sufficient holdback. One of the reasons for the holdback is, of course, we have to pay taxes.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And in addition to the T1 terminal return an estate trustee is going to prepare annually a T3 estate tax return.

Ian Hull: And that’s on estates that are not immediately distributable, so that if the assets are generating income, or there is a trust that is ongoing, or you just didn’t get it filed, the estate administered in the first year, Revenue Canada still wants their tax money on those, on the interest income or the growth and so forth.  So our annual T3 estate return needs to be filed, and that is approximately, again you can expect a Notice of Assessment  approximately six to nine months after that.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: One of the other things that we suggest to our clients to keep in mind after these tax returns have been taken care of, is to consider and to confirm that all CPP death benefits, that’s the Canada Pension Plan death benefits, have in fact been received on behalf of the estate.

Ian Hull: And also here in Ontario, we are forced to consider the issue of additional estate administration tax being paid.  And on this point, I was in Court the other day, not a case that I was involved with, but I was watching and I noticed that there was some argument between the government of Ontario and a big, it looked like a big estate, I didn’t follow all the details, but they were arguing over a refund.  The estate had, in fact, filed, and it turned out they had overpaid, they just basically overestimated the value of a big, big property, paid tax on it, the administration tax on it and then were now going back to the Court to work out a mechanism to get a repayment.  So, as is in life, possession is nine- tenths of the law. It reminded me of the adage that, you know, its always better to be conservative when you are making the filings, on the estate administration tax side because it can be more difficult  to get the money back than it can be to pay the money.  But obviously always being honest throughout the process.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s good advice, Ian.

Ian Hull: I think really at this point, I just want to take a deep breath and look back at what we are doing because, and this is where some clients, we meet some resistance from clients because they sort of see us as trying to cover off too much sometimes. But I really, I often at this point will sit down and prepare a comprehensive reporting letter.  From our standpoint, for sure, we will report throughout.  But this is a good time also for the beneficiaries to receive something in writing directly from the executor.  There is nothing like personal contact, ongoing phone calls is a great idea as well.  Just keeping people up to date, keeping the process personal.  Because this is personal, this isn’t a business transaction, this is a life transaction.  So I always encourage my clients who are executors to pick up the phone or grab a coffee with some of the beneficiaries or even have an informal meeting with them at the local coffee shop.  But most importantly, I also suggest to them that they prepare a reporting letter.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That is really good advice, Ian because it gives people then an opportunity to sort of see in writing all the hard work that you have done as an executor and the benefit of that, of course, being at the end of the day, when you want to seek compensation for your work as an estate trustee, you will have something to point the beneficiaries to in terms of the work and the hard effort that you have put forward in administering the estate.

Ian Hull: And it really is, it is not just self-serving, I think it is a natural reaction for people to, who feel that they are in the dark, no matter what you are dealing with, in business or, and in this case what is often a family situation.  Dialogue and communication is so crucial and so the more, the better.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then just sort of to wrap up the tax discussion that we had we want to turn our minds to the final income tax return and the preparation of that final T3, and then, of course, applying for the final Clearance Certificate in order to give the sort of seal of approval to all the tax filings that have been done to the estate trustee on behalf of the estate.

Ian Hull: Okay, so let’s talk this through a little bit because this is really the final bell for the tax filings, and this final T3 return and the final Clearance Certificate application is so important. Again, I typically will tell my clients unless they are the tax experts that I am not, make sure you send everything to the accountant.  This is the last chance to have sent all of the paper that you think might possibly relate to any of the assets of the estate to the accountant, let them decide what needs to be put to the taxing authority, not you.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then, of course, file the return, pay any taxes owing and just make note of the fact that you want to follow up the actual receipt of the Notice of Assessment for that final T3 return and typically that will come in about six to nine months.

Ian Hull: And then, of course, we have the second step and that is, of course, we will be looking for a Clearance Certificate.  But one of the things that people talk about, and without getting overly technical on the tax side, is what do you do when you want to wind up an estate because interest is always going to be accumulating?  And there is an easy answer, again not for my abilities to follow through on the mechanics, but the concept that: say there is a $100,000 left in the bank and you are holding that back to get your Clearance Certificate from CRA.  You filed your final T3 return, everything is really ready to go but there is this one remaining amount of money that is being held back because the accountant said look, you know what, this is a busy account and this individual did a lot of transactions over his lifetime and CRA could always come back and look, and that final look at the Clearance Certificate time, because we have to remember CRA, that’s the last kick they are going to get at it too.  So they typically take a pretty good, careful look at all of the tax activity of the deceased at that time.  But what you can do is, you can allocate the interest income that is being accumulated on the stop date.  So you, say you have some money left, you want to stop the estate, basically stop the clock running, so that you can indeed say it is over to Revenue Canada.  The go forward income accumulation just gets allocated to the beneficiaries.  And as I say, there are certain forms that get filed with the Revenue Canada and so forth to make that happen.  But it is an important step to allow you to bring close to the ongoing treadmill of interest income that is going to be coming in on the money you are holding.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that is a really good point to address in the letter that you write to the beneficiaries reporting on the administration of the estate and reminding them that at that point, that stop clock date or whatever you want to call it, at that point forward they have an annual obligation to themselves report that income and pay tax on it.

Ian Hull: And so now we are looking for that Clearance Certificate.  And even if that, as I say, the final distribution hasn’t been made, so you write a letter to CRA, you wait typically, it’s difficult to guess, it might be six to nine months, it might be more depending on the circumstances.  And once you receive that final Clearance Certificate you can send out your final distribution. 

Now one little twist, just as a final comment on the tax side is, is that you want also, I remind my clients to look at whether or not the deceased was a G.S.T. participant or registrant, because there can be special filings that need to be undertaken for that, and make sure that that’s been closed.  So your loop is closed fully on the tax side, you’ve diarized them and then in our next podcast, we are going to talk a little bit about the accounting obligations, not from the standpoint of the government, which we have gone through, it’s going to be hopefully no more tax time once we get in our next podcast, we are going to move into the accounting obligation as between the executor and the beneficiaries.

Suzana Popovic-Montag:  Well that is great, Ian.  Thanks very much.  I look forward to our next podcast.  And just a reminder again for anyone who has any comments about our podcast, please feel free to call us at 206-457-1985 or send us an e-mail at hullandhull@gmail.com or, of course, visit our blog and our webpage at estatelaw.hullandhull.com.

Ian Hull: Thanks Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Thanks Ian.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag.  The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service.  It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning.  It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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