Posted on June 3^rd, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Paul Trudelle: Hi and welcome to Hull on Estates. You’re listening to Episode #113 on Tuesday, June 3, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estates, a series of podcasts for the Canadian legal community dealing with issues and insights surrounding estate planning in Canada.  Hosted by the lawyers of Hull & Hull, the podcast will touch on some key considerations when planning estates and wills. Now, here are today’s hosts.

Diane Vieira: Hi Paul, how are you?

Paul Trudelle: Oh hi, Diane, very good, how are you today?

Diane Vieira: I’m good.

Paul Trudelle: We are podcasting together again and today we thought we’d talk about the issue of accounting under Powers of Attorney and the duty to account after the grantor of the Power of Attorney passed away.

Diane Vieira: So we’re going to discuss a 2008 Ontario decision, De Zorzi Estate v. Read.

Paul Trudelle: And we’ll have a link to that on our website. This is an interesting case that just came to our attention. It was released just recently, in March of 2008. Megan Connolly blogged on it earlier last week and we thought we’d go into a little more detail in our podcast today.

Diane Vieira: So this is a case which discusses the duty of an attorney to disclose financial records for the grantor of a Power of Attorney.

Paul Trudelle: Right, and it’s an interesting case because there, there was a Power of Attorney that was granted. The grantor passed away and the beneficiaries sought to get an accounting from the attorney after the death of the grantor.

Diane Vieira: Why don’t I just give a bit of the background to the case and the different parties?

Paul Trudelle: Sure, that’d be great.

Diane Vieira: The respondents in this case were the residual beneficiaries of the estate. And the other side was a person who was both attorney and estate trustee.

Paul Trudelle: I think that’s pretty important and we’ll talk a bit about how important that is down the road.

Diane Vieira: And the beneficiaries had the question with respect to what happened to some bank accounts, prior to the death of the grantor.

Paul Trudelle: Right, and that would be relevant because the question was, what assets fell within the estate at the time of death? So the actions of the Power of Attorney prior to that would be very relevant to the size and nature of the estate.

Diane Vieira: And in this case, the grantor, there was no question that she was competent and that she never became incapable and actually there was evidence before the Court that she was the one making the financial decisions prior to her death.

Paul Trudelle: Right, and I think that’s an important factor as well. This was not the case where there was an incapable grantor who wasn’t able to look after her affairs.  I think that would be a much easier case for getting disclosure in accounting down the road. But here she was capable throughout and was able to consent and in fact, directed the transactions and that was something that the attorney appears to have relied upon in trying to avoid an accounting.

Diane Vieira: Yeah, the attorney had argued that she doesn’t have to disclose this financial information. The only person she had to account to would have been the grantor who was capable.

Paul Trudelle: Right.

Diane Vieira: So the beneficiaries had a few questions with respect to the administration of the estate but the sticking point was these bank accounts as we discussed, which would require the attorney to provide disclosure of financial information predating the death of the grantor.

Paul Trudelle: That’s right. So the application was before the Court. The question was whether the attorney had to account to these beneficiaries. The attorney took the position that they didn’t have to account and the Court then considered whether the beneficiaries would have a right to compel an accounting. 

I think the important sections of the legislation which is the Substitute Decisions Act in Ontario, is Section 42. Section 42 provides for an attorney to pass their accounts and sets out or enumerates who can apply to have accounts passed. Clearly, the grantor, if alive and capable, can request that the accounts be passed. There’s a number of other parties that are listed as being able to compel an accounting: the grantor, the attorney themselves, the Public Guardian and Trustee and the Children’s Lawyer have an automatic right to apply for an accounting, a judgment creditor of the grantor or the incapable person.  And at the end of Section 42(4) there is a catch-all: any other person with leave of the Court, and that’s the key there. If you’re falling into that ‘any other person’ category, you have to apply to the Court to get leave to get permission from the Court to compel the passing. And the question here was whether beneficiaries of an estate fell within the ‘any other person’ category who could then apply to the Court to compel a passing.

Diane Vieira: That’s right. Justice Herman looked at case law but with reference to this Section. She did find the beneficiaries within the Court were allowed to ask for an accounting.

Paul Trudelle: Right, and I think the cases, the Court identified the unusual or probably it’s usual, it happens a lot, the factor is that here, the attorney under the Power of Attorney was the same person as the estate trustee. So whereas normally an estate trustee would step into the shoes of the grantor and be entitled to compel an accounting from an attorney, here that estate trustee was one and the same as the attorney.  And the Court felt that it wasn’t likely that that person would compel an accounting from themselves and, therefore, opened the door to allow the beneficiaries of the estate to ask for this accounting. 

So, having qualified as a person or other person entitled to apply for leave to pass the accounts, the Court then turned their mind to whether the beneficiaries should be granted leave in this case.  And the Court considered a number of factors and looked at the issue of whether the fact that the grantor was capable throughout had an impact on whether leave should be granted.

Diane Vieira: Well in the Stickles Estate v. Fuller, the Justice based her decision on Section 42(1) of the Act which provides that the Court can order the accounts of the attorney to be passed and it doesn’t depend on whether the grantor became incapable or not.

Paul Trudelle: Right, and I think there’s a very broad and clear requirement that attorneys keep their accounts and pass them or produce them when asked for.  And the fact that the person was capable is not going to be seen as something that negates the requirement to pass accounts. The Stickles case was one where the grantor was capable and yet the Court still required the passing. 

Another factor is, another issue that the Court looked at in this decision is, how far back you have to go when passing your accounts. In this case, there was a Power of Attorney granted in September of ‘04 before death, and the person died in December ‘04. The beneficiaries sought an accounting that went back well before that, back to January ’04.  And the Court found that the duty or requirement to pass accounts will only go back as far as the Power of Attorney itself. And in fact, the Court looked at other cases and those cases dealt with attorneyships that predated the Substitute Decisions Act and in those other cases, the obligation to account only went back as far as the passing or the effective date of the Substitute Decisions Act. So in most cases then, the duty to account will start from when the Power of Attorney is actually granted.

So just to wrap up then on this topic, first of all I’d like to refer you to a very helpful article by Kim Whaley in the 2008 issue of Deadbeat that discusses this case and a number of the cases that are referred to in the De Zorzi Estate decision.  And it summarizes the applicable law and concludes by saying that the case is very helpful in clarifying the law with respect to the duty to account. Generally speaking, there is a heavy onus on an attorney to keep records and to pass those accounts when required and it clarifies who can request the passing of accounts after the death of the grantor. And you may be required to account to beneficiaries of the estate, even though the grantor was capable while you were acting as attorney and even though you are the estate trustee for that person’s estate as well.

Diane Vieira: Thanks, Paul.

Paul Trudelle: Well thanks, Diane. And before we leave, we’d just like to refer you to our contact information.

Diane Vieira: You can reach us by e-mail at hull.lawyers@gmail.com or you can call us on our telephone line which is 206-350-6636.

Paul Trudelle: We also invite you to visit our webpage where we have daily blogs and links to our podcasts on Hull and Estates and also our podcasts on Hull and Estate and Succession Planning. That can be found at estatelaw.hullandhull.com.

This has been Hull on Estates with the lawyers of Hull & Hull. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullandhull.com.

Our theme music is Upper Structure by DJ AKid  and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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Posted on February 19^th, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

David Smith: Hello, welcome to Hull on Estates. You’re listening to Episode #98 in our continuing podcast series on Tuesday, February 19^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estates, a series of podcasts for the Canadian legal community dealing with issues and insights surrounding estate planning in Canada.   Hosted by the lawyers of Hull & Hull, the podcast will touch on some key considerations when planning estates and Wills.  Now, here are today’s hosts.

David Smith: Hello Rick.

Rick Bickhram: Hi Dave. How are you doing today?

David Smith: You know, I’m doing well, Rick. And, you know, today we’ve decided… its David Smith here and I’m with Rick Bickhram of my office.  And we’ve decided today, Rick, that what we’re going to podcast on is a bit of a potpourri but the focus is really going to be on the accounting procedure available under the Substitute Decisions Act. And in particular, how the obligation to account as an attorney is the same as or is different from the obligation to account as an executor, for instance. And then we thought we’d talk about the specific procedures under the Substitute Decisions Act that permit someone to compel an accounting. So Rick, let’s talk about this whole idea of accounting generally. What is it about an attorney that opens them up to the whole concept of a duty to account?

Rick Bickhram: That’s a good question, Dave. My understanding is that an attorney, by virtue of the fact that you’re an attorney, there’s a fiduciary relationship. And that fiduciary relationship is established by the fact that the attorney has the power to do what the incapable person or on behalf of the incapable person, anything that the incapable person would have been able to do had he or she been capable.

David Smith: You know, and that’s right, Rick. And certainly, when we’re talking about the Substitute Decisions Act, intuitively we’re thinking about someone substituting their decision-making role for that of someone who can’t otherwise exercise it. Of course, the Substitute Decisions Act also applies to people who are perfectly capable, but who voluntarily surrender their decision-making ability to someone in more of a principal/ agent relationship. But you’re quite right, it’s a fiduciary relationship and it’s clearly a fiduciary relationship when the grantor of the Power of Attorney is incapable, isn’t it?

Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. And I think it’s also important to note that the fiduciary in the fiduciary relationship, whether it be voluntary or involuntary, the attorney or a guardian in the situation would have the ability to manage the grantor’s or incapable person’s finances.

David Smith: And that’s where the duty to account comes in, isn’t it, Rick?

Rick Bickhram: Absolutely, Dave.

David Smith: Rick, when we talk about the form of accounts, obviously it’s beyond the ambit of our discussion today to talk about the form of accounts and the whole process of a passing of accounts which is clearly a subject matter for another podcast. But I think continuing on with this idea of the concept of a duty to account, what ties into that and what we really want to explore to some extent today is, how do we compel an accounting? And what does the Substitute Decisions Act say to the duty of an attorney to account, and what remedies are available to someone who wants to compel an accounting?

Rick Bickhram: Well Dave, the authority to obtain an Order to compel an attorney to account can be found under Section 42 of the Substitute Decisions Act. Now under Section 42 of the Substitute Decisions Act, specifically sub-section 1, it states that the Court may, on an application, order that all or a specific part of the accounts of an attorney or guardian be passed. Going through this section, it lists the types of individuals who can bring this application to obtain this unique remedy.

David Smith: And who are those people, Rick?

Rick Bickhram: Under sub-section 4-- well, first of all, let me take a step back. Looking at sub-section 2, it states an attorney, the grantor or any of the persons listed in sub-section 4, may apply to pass the attorney’s accounts. From this, I gather that it means the attorney or the grantor of the Power of Attorney. Sub-section 4 states the grantor or incapable person’s guardian of the person or attorney for personal care. As we all know, a Power of Attorney can be given with respect to property and personal care. Section 42, sub-section 4, sub 1 states that it’s the guardian or attorney for the personal care that can proceed with the Court application to compel a passing of accounts.

David Smith: Okay, and that’s an interesting safeguard, isn’t it? Because, I mean, there’s a fair bit of case law dealing with situations where somebody appoints different people to be their attorneys for property and attorneys for personal care respectively. And quite often, there’s conflict between those two and the attorney for personal care who, for example, chooses a care facility for a senior grantor, may run into conflict with the person who’s paying the bills, namely the attorney for property. So intuitively, it makes some sense actually to give that attorney for personal care the power to say to the attorney for property, “Hey, attorney for property, I’m not satisfied that you’re doing everything you should or I want to see what you’re doing and make sure that the books are in order”. What about… what other people have the ability there?

Rick Bickhram: Under Section 42, sub-section 4, sub 2, a dependant of the grantor or incapable person. So the individual who grants the Power of Attorney or has been declared incapable, may move by way of a Court application to obtain a passing of accounts from the attorney or guardian. The third, I guess this is an entity, the Public Guardian and Trustee may move by way of an application to obtain a passing of accounts.

David Smith: Right and then the remaining 3, Rick, are the Children’s Lawyer, in the case of a minor who’s got an interest.  There’s obviously some standing there for them to do it. I think the next two are the most interesting. A judgment creditor of the grantor or incapable person. That’s a rarely used remedy in my experience, but it’s certainly interesting to think that somebody who is owed money by the grantor of the Power of Attorney or the incapable person can seek to compel an accounting, presumably as a way of seeking to recover monies to which they’re owed. So it’s very interesting that that person is given that remedy. And then, of course, the last one is any other person with leave of the Court. And I guess, you know, the interesting question there is, what is the test that the Court’s going to require before granting leave to someone? And certainly, in my experience, the Court is going to say to an applicant seeking leave, what is your reason for doing this? What is your standing before the Court to seek an accounting? Do you have any relationship to the person? Be you a blood relative or someone else with good cause to be concerned about the management of the person’s finances? And Rick, what do you think we’d need to do in terms of Affidavit evidence on that application, to convince a judge that our client should get leave?

Rick Bickhram: The person who is trying to obtain leave would have to demonstrate in his Affidavit that there was a relationship between himself and the incapable person or the grantor who’s granted the Power of Attorney in the situation. Also I would like to believe that the individual, the deponent here, who’s making this Affidavit, would probably want to establish some type of financial interest. Why is it that he’s seeking and why is that he is seeking a compelling of the accounts? What is his interest in this individual or this individual’s estate?

David Smith: Yeah, and you know, that’s a really interesting point, Rick, and something I wrestle with, with clients quite often in the sense that look, quite often, you’ll be dealing with a situation where you’ll have persons who have a financial interest on the death of the grantor. And the problem is this; if they go in front of the Court seeking leave to compel an accounting and say “My interest in this matter is that I have a financial interest on the death of the grantor, therefore in order to make sure that the amount I eventually inherit has not been improperly squandered before the death of the grantor, I want to monitor what’s being done with the money.” Of course, the problem with making that pitch is that the judge hearing this will be inclined to say, “Well, hold on a second. My job is not to protect the inheritance of the grantor for the benefit of the person who benefits under the estate. It’s to make sure the grantor is well looked after”. And the way I approach that is to say, “Certainly it’s relevant to say that you’ve got an expectation of an inheritance and that does give you some financial standing.” On the other hand, I think the Affidavit has to be crafted in such a way as to make it clear to the judge that the overriding, compelling basis by which the person is seeking leave to compel an accounting is to look out for the best interests of the grantor because the Court is not going to care one iota about preserving the inheritance of the grantor for the benefit of the person seeking leave, is it?

Rick Bickhram: And that makes complete sense, Dave. And if you think about it, I guess as an attorney or as a solicitor, I would be a little reluctant to go in front of the judge and explain to the judge that my client is, you know, pretty much monitoring his financial interest in the estate, especially being that the individual, the individual being the grantor or the incapable person, is still alive, it’s his money. And right now, the first concern should be his well-being.

David Smith: Right.  So fine line there. But, you know, something that needs to be mentioned because it does, as you stated at the outset there Rick, tie into what is the interest of the person seeking leave. And a complete stranger seeking to compel an accounting isn’t going to get anywhere if they can’t show a compelling relationship with the grantor. Now Rick, looking at the time, you know, we’re getting close to the end of the podcast.  Did, before we finish, want to touch on Section 39 of the Substitute Decisions Act. And this is a really interesting Section in my mind. It’s probably an underused Section for anyone engaged in capacity litigation. And what it is, is it’s a Section of the Act which provides directions from the Court and I’ll read it. It says, “If an incapable person has a guardian or an attorney under a continuing Power of Attorney, the Court may give directions on any question arising in the management of the property”. And that’s pretty broad language, isn’t it, Rick?

Rick Bickhram: Absolutely. And as I was reading through this section earlier today, I was thinking to myself, “What is the prospects or how likely is it that the individual would bring or ask for a remedy seeking the passing of accounts under this Section, you know, versus 42.” I understand that 42 specifically sets out a passing of accounts. But let’s say there are other Orders that they’re seeking. You would very well stick in Section 39 in there.

David Smith: That’s absolutely right, Rick. I think these two Sections can quite often be used together. And it’s an important tool for the litigator to keep in mind. If you look at the people who are eligible to apply under Section 39. Section 39, sub 3, similarly provides the Court with the power to grant leave to anyone to apply for directions. And the nice thing about Section 39 is you might have a situation where you don’t have a guardianship application; that’s to say that your client isn’t seeking guardianship of the incapable person, but is seeking more than merely an accounting. And Section 39 is this nice… it gives you this nice, intermediary approach between a full blown guardianship application on the one hand and an application for directions or to compel a passing of accounts rather. And it gives you that much more room and it’s nice, broad language. You know, you can be creative, you do some lateral thinking and really, you know, use that Section to your advantage. And remember, the Court is under a duty here to supervise the role of the attorney, the role of the guardian. It’s a powerful Section and the Court has a great deal of power under this Section and it should always be considered when looking at remedies available to the client who is seeking to look out for the concerns of an incapable grantor of a Power of Attorney.

Rick Bickhram: Great point, Dave. Well looking at the time, it looks like we are just about at the end of our podcast. It was great talking with you today, Dave.

David Smith: You know Rick, I enjoyed it too and we’ll look forward to the next opportunity to podcast. Take care.

This has been Hull on Estates with the lawyers of Hull & Hull.  The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service.  It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning.  It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullandhull.com.

Our theme music is Upper Structure by DJ AKid  and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

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