As you probably know, Hull and Hull LLP produces two weekly podcasts that discuss issues related to the estates area and estate and succession planning. Podcasting has certainly grown in the last year and there is a lot of content out there. To learn more about our firm’s use of this social medium, read Suzana Popovic-Montag’s and Ian Hull’s blog on podcasting.

Other Canadian legal podcasts include Osler Audio Reports offered by Osler, Hoskin, & Harcourt LLP that discuss a variety of business legal issues. The Canadian Bar Association provides PracticeLink Podcasts offering practice management information to its members. Law is Cool is both a blog and podcast produced by and for Canadian law students. (Podcast Episode No. 8 features an interview with Ian Hull).

Law schools are also providing a tremendous amount of information through the podcasting medium. The University of Ottawa’s Law and Technology Program was one of the first educational institutions to utilize podcasting and make classes available via podcasts. Through podcasts, many American law schools are making special lectures available to the public. Harvard Law School’s Program on Negotiation produces PONcasts offering advice on negotiation skills.

On a slightly different note, BBC Radio 4’s Law in Action is a half hour weekly podcast from the UK that discusses legal issues in the news.  

These are just a few of the legal podcast choices out there. Whether it is for education or entertainment purposes, there is a lot of information out there.  

Have a nice day,

Diane Vieira

This week on Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana talk about the specifics of what happens when you have to go to court to formally pass accounts.

Comments? Send us and email at hullandhull@gmail.com, call us on the comment line at 206-457-1985, or leave us a comment on the Hull on Estate and Succession Planning blog.

Posted on May 20, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi, and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. You’re listening to Episode #113 of our podcast on Tuesday, May 20^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada. From the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, here are Ian and Suzana.

Ian Hull:    Hi, Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag:   Hi there, Ian. How are you today?

Ian Hull: I am fantastic. Looking forward to lucky 113 on our podcast efforts.  And we finished off last week reminding our listeners to please feel free to contact us.  And the best way is to jump on our webpage at hullandhull.com and we have an easy navigation to our podcasts and our other sources we have on the webpage.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And we had a couple of comments this week, Ian. People were looking for the article that we had referred to during our last podcast from The New York Times and I just want to remind people that they can actually find that link on our webpage under the News and Links icon at the very bottom of the page. We have started what we call sort of our recommended reading list, and it’s what I kind of call behind the doors, you know “the Oprah’s Book Club”. So there’s actually a link to the article there and so for anyone who’s interested, please feel free to go there.

Ian Hull: That’s great. And we’re going to try to build that link up a little bit. I had a great meeting the other day with one of Canada’s leading social media new members, and a great guy, Bob Berman, who is a lawyer up in Yorkville who does family law.  But he and I were talking about that and developing our own reading lists on our own webpages and he and I were sharing some books. Right now, I know, I’ve just finished “Blink” and “Tipping Point”, which were both excellent books and we’re going to put those on the link page.  And we’re also, I know, Suzana you and I are just starting through “Ground Swell”, which really now seems to be one of the “must reads” in the social media world in terms of getting a handle on marketing and working through the social media network. So that’s another great book.

Alright, we left off last week talking about accounting issues and I was speaking to a great friend of mine up in northern Ontario the other day, about this very topic.  And she’s a lawyer there and she said to me, “You know, Ian, one of the things that amazes me is that I’ve been doing this practice of law for many, many years, and I have never had to formally pass my accounts”. And we talked about yesterday, the last podcast, how we had talked a little bit about the informal expectations and the way you can resolve the question of your ongoing obligations to account as a trustee informally. We’ll give some more ideas on that as we work through, but the point sort of struck me that here’s a lawyer that’s been practicing for 20 years in a busy estates practice.  And most people just don’t force their hand of going to Court and having what is called essentially a Court audit, where the judge essentially has to go through line by line. Now having said that, in our practice, we see a lot of it, and it’s one of those things that this lawyer pointed out to me was that she wished that she had more or had seen a bit more of it because it is becoming more and more prevalent. One is, is that people are expecting this standard of good record keeping and if you don’t have it, they’re pushing you on to Court. And number 2 is, is that we can’t forget that where there are minor children’s interests or interests beyond the scope of able-bodied adults, we have to pass our accounts in any event. 

So we thought, Suzana and I thought it would be a good exercise to go through some of the details and specifics of what happens when one passes their accounts, when they have to actually draw that short straw and go to Court.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And as we were discussing during our last podcast too, Ian, and I think that with the increasing size of estates that are out there now and this huge transfer of tremendous wealth, we are dealing with bigger estates and more at-risk, so to speak, when you are the executor of an estate, and different kinds of beneficiaries.  And so it’s not surprising that we will probably see more and more of the formal passing when a trustee ultimately says, “Well what’s the downside, why wouldn’t I get the Court, you know, seal of approval on my administration, why would I forego that opportunity if I don’t have to?”

Ian Hull: Well that’s for sure and so let’s talk a little bit about what the process is. Now, we’re going to talk a bit about some of the Ontario centric steps, but I know certainly across Canada and in most of the jurisdictions in the United States, the process is almost identical, in that you go to Court and you file what is called a Notice of Application to pass your accounts. It’s a formal bound copy of a couple of very important things. One are the accounts themselves that you want the Court to audit; the other is a copy of the Will or the trust that is involved, the kind of core document. And number 3 is you file what you hope to be the final Order, the final result you look to achieve.  So you give everybody sort of the information, you give them the basics of the documents that you need to work from and then you say this is where I want to land, I look forward to your comments, so to speak.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And as part and parcel of that Notice of Application, it’s going to certainly quantify the period of time during which the accounts are being passed and it’s also going to refer to the compensation, specifically that the trustee is looking for, as well as the legal fees to which he or she is seeking, on basically on an unopposed basis. And then there is, certainly in Ontario, there is provision for the costs and what that amount would be for anyone who has actually reviewed the accounts.  It’s usually either half or three-quarters of the amount that the executor would otherwise be entitled to.

Ian Hull: So we have this application and the form of it is basically we’re going to the Court to say, “We want our accounts passed” and we say it in a more legalistic way, but that’s the long and the short of it. The second part of it, though, is in the Application material, is in the Affidavit of Verification. And this Affidavit, you have to, as the executor, swear to the truth and accuracy of the accounts attached.  So that someone, basically the information you’re putting to the Court, sticks to you from an evidentiary standpoint. The form of that Affidavit is, there’s sort of two approaches: One is a very straightforward, one sentence long that says, “I attach the accounts and I swear them to be true and accurate”; and the other is one where, if you’re looking and you’re seeing a fight on any of the issues, you may want to flush out your position a little bit in some of the facts.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that’s, I think, more the unusual circumstance but one that we certainly see and I think it ultimately helps a Court who is dealing with the situation know the facts up front and know what’s sort of coming down the pipes before the parties actually show up in Court to argue those issues.

Ian Hull: So this expanded Affidavit of Verification, the form of the first one is obviously simple enough to do.  Obviously you hope that the accounts are accurate and true, prepared typically by a third party, someone who has a specialty in estate format accounts, but the comprehensive Affidavit in support will typically tell the story. So, for example, say you have an estate that has a large amount of assets in it and you are looking for significant compensation. You may want to, in the Affidavit of Verification, set out some of the detail of your work. Sometimes, for example, the Court likes to see copies of your dockets that you kept track of your efforts over the years in administering the estate, so that they have a sense of the time. They also may want to put a sense of the complexity and the background in it. This is just one example of what you can do to expand your Affidavit to help tell a better story to the Court, and also, quite frankly, to sell it to the other side.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that’s particularly so, I think, when you’ve got beneficiaries of an estate who are not familial members. So when you have, you know, third parties who wouldn’t know necessarily the extent of the work that the executor is doing, like a charity for instance, or another beneficiary who is far removed from the process, and it can only help to have all that information put to them sooner rather than later.

Ian Hull:  So if you’ve got your package ready, another thing that you want to keep in mind is, I think, I always tell my clients, is that watch your timing. This process takes a lot of time.  In the grand scheme of things, it may not be a lot of time if you’ve administered an estate for many years, but in Ontario and in most other jurisdictions, there is a substantial amount of time that people have to respond. For example, when you send out your Notice of Application in Ontario, and you serve everyone who has an interest in these accounts, what we call a financial interest, they have at least 45 days to respond.  So you’re looking out, you prepare the materials, take some time, then once you serve it you’re still looking at another 45 days minimum to have the accounts audited by the Court.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And if the beneficiaries actually reside outside of Ontario, you’re looking at 60 days as the minimum service requirement. And that basically gives the parties hopefully enough time to review the accounts, to seek advice if they need to do so, and at the end of the day, ultimately the expectation or the hope being by the trustee, that they will consent to the accounts.

Ian Hull: So we’ve got it out there, we know it’s going to take some time. In our next podcast, we’re really going to flush out what our, I mean, you can never say typical in our world, but what are traditionally the areas of objection. But the procedural step is once you serve the account on those with a financial interest is you will then…they have an opportunity to file what is called a Notice of Objection, so a complaint, formally with the Court. And this is done either typically not in Affidavit form, but it is filed through the form of the Court and there they set out the nature and extent of the objections. So in our next podcast, I think it would be helpful for us to just take a little bit of time drilling down on some of the, what we call the low-hanging fruit issues, the issues that are often criticized in a passing of accounts so that we can help get better prepared for that inevitable day and hopefully have done our work before, to sell the Volkswagen to the beneficiaries.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Well, thanks very much, Ian.  I look forward to our next podcast, and I remind our listeners who are interested in providing us with some feedback on this or any other podcast, to feel free to visit our webpage at hullandhull.com and leave us a message.

Ian Hull: Thanks very much, Suzana.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

/mem

This week on Hull on Estates Suzanna and Ian review the pullout in March 18th's New York Times and talk about the importance of dialog before and after death.

Comments? Send us an email at hull.lawyers@gmail.com, call us on the comment line at 206-350-6636, or leave us a comment on the Hull on Estates blog.

Posted on May 13^th, 2008 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi and welcome to Hull on Estates. You’re listening to Episode #110 of our podcast on Tuesday, May 13^th, 2008.

Welcome to Hull on Estates, a series of podcasts for the Canadian legal community dealing with issues and insights surrounding estate planning in Canada.  Hosted by the lawyers of Hull & Hull, the podcast will touch on some key considerations when planning estates and Wills. Now, here are today’s hosts.

Suzana Popovic-Montag:        Hello and welcome to Hull on Estates. It’s Suzana Popovic-Montag here with Ian Hull. Hi, Ian.

Ian Hull: Hi, Suzana, how are you doing?

Suzana Popovic-Montag: I’m good, thank you, how are you?

Ian Hull: Great, happy to be on Hull on Estates this week and want to just remind everyone that we have a, encourage of course, a call-in number, at 206-350-6636.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And that number you’ll find also in our show notes as well as our e-mail address which is hull.lawyers@gmail.com if you’d like to send us your comments by e-mail.

Ian Hull: Well, Suzana, we’ve got a couple of things we want to cover this week on Hull on Estates and our companion podcast dealing with estate administration issues right now. We’ve been talking about how an estate should be administered and giving some thoughts and sort of a mini-series on that. And I thought it might be fun today to talk about a couple of things relating to the dialogue that we think we should encourage and we certainly encourage with our clients, both before death and after death, before death with their family and then after death with the beneficiaries. But before we get to that, why don’t we spend a minute or two here talking about the

wonderful news about our good friend, Terry Fallis.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Terry has self-published a novel and that’s a really impressive accomplishment on his behalf which has now won him the Leacock Award.

Ian Hull: Now for those of you who don’t know anything about the Stephen Leacock Award, it’s called the Stephen Leacock Medal for Humour and Stephen Leacock, who, actually in his day, he was described as someone more famous than Wayne Gretzky is today to Canadians. He was known throughout the world. In the early 1900s when you spoke of Stephen Leacock, many people around the world would have heard of him before they would have heard of a prime minister in Canada. But, obviously a great novel writer and a humourist, and every year there is an award that is handed out in his honour. Terry Fallis was short-listed and then ultimately won the Leacock Award for his book, “The Best Laid Plans”.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And Terry’s book is actually a story about a reluctant political candidate who consents to run in a federal election on the condition, of course, that he won’t campaign, give any kind of media interviews or canvass door-to-door.  And it’s an amazingly well-written book that really does deserve, in my humble view, this wonderful award.

Ian Hull: And one of the neat things about this is, one of the many neat things is obviously Terry’s a terrific writer and a great humourist.  But what he did was, the classic publisher route he did not follow. He went the social media route and Terry’s obviously on the cutting edge of social media work, generally, and a real mentor to us in the podcasting world here for us. But he self-published his book.  He also has his book on the Internet for free in audio form.  So he has all of the chapters which he read and published on the Internet.  And the remarkable thing, obviously, of winning the Leacock Award is tremendous, but to be coming out of a self-published environment is unheard of, and really a testament to what Terry has been able to do in the social media world. I know the president of Thornley Fallis, Joe Thornley, is another incredible social media expert and I understand that he is going to be speaking out in Calgary where Suzana is also a speaker in the fall, at what looks to be one of the leading social media conferences for professionals and for others who are interested in getting into the social media workforce with a business slant. But Terry turned the business model to perfection because he talked about his book, he blogged about his book, he self-published his book, he published the book in audio, he did all of the sort of core steps that the social media environment allows for. So, tremendous success for him and an exciting time for him, no doubt and him and his family.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Congratulations, Terry. We’re very, very happy for you.

Ian Hull: Alright, so what we thought we might talk about today was something that we’re going to get actually put on to our webpage.  And it came out of The New York Times.  It was a special section on wealth and personal finance. It came out on Tuesday, March 18, and I was alerted to it before it came out and picked up a copy of The New York Times because it looked like it was going to be a fascinating special section.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And it really is, Ian. Flipping through it, it really is a great synopsis of our whole area and it captures all the main headings in terms of the estates and trust planning, the inter-generational transfer of wealth, and finance management, and I just highly recommend it to anyone who is able to pick up a copy or to refer to it on our website.

Ian Hull: And we’ve been talking a lot in our other podcasts, but also in this one, that, you know, from our perspective anyway, communication is crucial and this pull-out section from The New York Times really is a great summary. As I say, we’ll get it up on our webpage in the next little while. It’s a great summary of the different approaches that are going on. We’ve also always said and it appears to be as true as we’ve said it, is that the U.S. are so far ahead of us on talking about wealth management, wealth and inheritance talking in that sense, and really talking about the values of money. The first article in the section is entitled, “Breaking the Silence”. And talking, really, from a standpoint of motivating the family.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And what I thought was amazing is the statistic that is actually set out there that says that there is going to be the largest inter-generational transfer of wealth in American history now underway.  And the Boston College Centre on Wealth and Philanthropy has actually estimated, Ian, that $41 trillion is going to change hands by the year 2052.

Ian Hull: So, you know, given these numbers in the U.S., we continue to obviously pale in comparison in terms of the Canadian experience.  But, you know, we continue to encourage our clients to talk about, you know, getting into, entering into discussions because these discussions need to take place against the backdrop of changing estate and tax laws, innovative tax instruments that are now available and, you know, using what is out there, and that’s the sort of an army of newly trained and well trained wealth advisors.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: We also have to recognize the fact that the reality is that there is a lot of upheaval and family discord that’s out there, and this complicates the planning mechanisms that are actually implemented by these advisors.  And so the reality is there is going to be divorce, there is remarriage, there is adoption, there are different kinds of domestic partnerships that have become sort of the norm, and all of this is taken into effect and into consideration in the planning mechanisms.

Ian Hull: And you look at it, and in one of the articles in the pull-out section there’s a…Patricia Angus is quoted and she’s a principal of a wealthy advisory service in New York and this is a classic definition. She defines wealth as the following: The definition, she says, is broadening to include not just financial capital but human, social and intellectual capital.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then she says that the professionals used to think that it was just, how do I go about transferring my financial assets at the lowest tax cost? Now actually people are asking, well what’s the purpose and the meaning of what it is that I’m doing here and how do I want to pass this down to the next generation or further generations?

Ian Hull: And she makes a great point that it really…it’s not about death, it’s about an experience in life and an opportunity to talk to your family about purpose and values that might not otherwise come up.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And for people who just write a document and put it in a drawer to be opened up then on their death, it doesn’t foresee or doesn’t take into account the opportunity that you can have that would arise by speaking during your lifetime about your plans.

Ian Hull: So as we work through this section, you know, obviously we’re struck by a couple of the other articles. There’s a great article talking about, it’s entitled, “Protecting Children From Their Money” and the sort of parental distress that comes with situations where parents have accumulated a fair amount of wealth and have indeed begun to pass it down. But there’s a wonderful article as well that sort of works through this whole breaking of the silence of inheritance, and the author goes through specifically and talks to wealthy individuals. There’s one point in the article, a Mr. Rothenberg who had received $10 million in the sale of his company, the company I think was called Syracuse Language Systems that they refer to. And he then set up a charitable foundation and a community foundation for his three children to run, and that was set up with just under $5 million.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And then with some of the remainder of his funds he started a company that he actually called the Glottal Enterprises which makes speech aids for people who are hearing impaired.  Again, it’s a small company that loses money, he called it, at the time.

Ian Hull: But he wanted to do something different and he even notes in the article, he’s quoted, he jokes about the fact that he’s sure his children wanted more of the money themselves, but he has created two separate foundations. He’s created an important legacy from his perspective. 

So, anyway, as I say, we’re going to put this on the webpage so that you can have an opportunity to enjoy some of this, but feel free, obviously, The New York Times online, and as I say, it’s on the March 18, 2008 pull-out section called “Wealth and Personal Finance”. But I highly encourage it and good reading, (a) because I think the topic is really well worked through by the various writers, but (b) it’s always good to see what the U.S. experience is and in particular, how the U.S. experience is being, they even deal with this, impacted on a more fragile U.S. economy and how that’s affecting this inherited wealth scenario.

Suzana Popovic-Montag:  Well I think, Ian that brings us to the end of this week’s discussion. Thanks for listening to me and for joining me today.

Ian Hull: So thank you Suzana, it’s a real pleasure and I look forward to podcasting with you again soon, and remind people that our call-in number, 206-350-6636, is always available for phone calls.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Or again, feel free to send us an e-mail at hull.lawyers@gmail.com or visit our daily blog at estatelaw.hullandhull.com. Thanks very much.

This has been Hull on Estates with the lawyers of Hull & Hull. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullandhull.com.

Our theme music is Upper Structure by DJ AKid  and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

This week on Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana discuss how important it is to be prepared for an initial meeting with an estate lawyer.

They have also been listening to and reading David Maister's new (audio)book Strategy and the Fat Smoker and continue their conversation on The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.

Comments? Send us an email at hullandhull@gmail.com, call us on the comment line at 206-457-1985, or leave us a comment on the Hull on Estate and Succession Planning blog.

This week on Hull on Estates and Succession Planning, Ian and Suzana discuss the core issues surrounding estate taxes.

Posted on December 18^th, 2007 by Hull & Hull LLP

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi, and welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. You’re listening to Episode #91 of our podcast on Tuesday, December 18^th, 2007.

Welcome to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning, a series of podcasts hosted by

Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag, that will provide information and insights into estate planning in Canada, from the offices of Hull Estate Mediation in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Here are Ian and Suzana.

Ian Hull: Hi Suzana.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Hi there, Ian. How are you today?

Ian Hull: I’m fantastic.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s good. How’s your Christmas shopping coming along?

Ian Hull: Yeah.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: One week till Christmas. And the countdown begins.

Ian Hull: Yeah, good question and it hasn’t even begun the shopping, so the stores will hear from me. I remember one Christmas I shopped so fast that Visa called me because I had gone to 3 stores so quickly they thought that I was a thief and took my card. So that we have to look forward to.

But it’s a good time, I think, certainly this time of the year. And more importantly, we’ve been working through some of the estate planning questions. We got a little bit more complex as we moved along in this what we call “mini series” of tax planning the Wills and looking at the tax issues. And I thought today what we could do is just spend a few minutes really just doing a bit of an overview of what we’ve accomplished. I was struck by the fact that recently I was listening to Terry Fallis’ Inside PR and he and Dave Jones are great podcasters. We’ve talked about them in our podcasts from time to time and Episode #87 was one which they were talking about, and it sort of struck me about how we’ve been trying to approach this little mini series on tax planning. They were talking about what is social media and what sort of good does it bring to the process and what kind of…what are the positives and negatives. And clearly, the positive is hopefully an exchange of information that we want to foster and encourage. And certainly through this series, one of the things that I know you and I want to work on in ’08 to enhance this podcast is to get a little bit more exchange. We’re going to set up a 206 number or whatever, a call in number in the new year, encourage people to call in and make some comment if they think it’s appropriate. But, you know, when we were, you and I were working through these tax planning issues, we looked at sort of the three core areas that we find is the most feedback that we’re getting, from both our clients and from counsel and from the public so to speak, talking about avoiding estate planning tax, the Estate Act tax, which is a tax that everybody knows is the probate fee tax. That’s something that the feedback is consistent, although not on a 206 number, but in the informal discussion we have from day-to-day. Talking about how we deal with the capital gains tax. And then thirdly, how we manage US assets and sort of can start to consider the basic issues surrounding US estate taxes.

And so we hope that…Suzana and I certainly hope that we’ve managed to at least talk about these issues at a fairly sophisticated level in the sense that I hope we haven’t been too complex about the issues. But I think that we’ve tried to sort of cover these areas. And so I thought we’d spend a couple of minutes today just talking about, in general terms, those three concepts again and highlighting some of the core issues that we manage to work through over, I would say, I don’t know how many podcasts this mini series has been, but probably there’ve been 10 at least, I would think.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That sounds about right, Ian.

Ian Hull: So remembering…I try to remember on the estate tax the first thing, being that let’s not…and I think that the core theme was with this tax planning series, was to refocus our attention to away from the soft issues and really spend some time on what are the tax issues. And clearly, avoiding the estate administration tax in Ontario tends to be a fundamental estate planning tool that people undertake. It’s 1.5% of the assets so, as we’ve continued to say, we don’t want to over exaggerate it.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: On our companion podcast last week, Ian, we know that David Smith and Allan Socken were speaking about probate and issues that arise in estate administrations. And one of the things that Dave said is that it’s just remarkable how often and how prevalent the fact that people are trying to avoid a 1.5% tax leads to a whole bunch of issues from a litigation perspective, that people wouldn’t otherwise have expected. It’s just really quite remarkable that when you really think about that number, it’s not as significant, I would suggest, as what other people might think. And the hoops and the lengths that people will go to, to avoid that, it just sometimes just doesn’t warrant it.

Ian Hull: Absolutely. Now remember we had some good discussions on how we manage the capital gains tax. And one of the ways that we talked about managing it was creating the trust environments, both testamentary trusts and inter vivos trusts, so trusts during the lifetime. So on estate administration tax, the simple answer to avoiding it in a large part is the primary and secondary Will, creating two Wills; one dealing with issues that will be taxed, and others dealing with assets that will not be taxes, typically corporations and the like.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: Another thing that we talked about was the use of beneficiary designations in either RRSPs or in life insurance policies and those kinds of instruments.

Ian Hull: So we don’t want to forget the two different trusts because that does help us defer the capital gain. And the capital gain, that terrible moment in time when finally Revenue Canada catches up to us and forces us to pay the tax that we owe. Now, again, just talking about what we wanted to accomplish on the trust analysis that we did was to emphasize that trusts that are created during lifetime create a different, entirely different tax structure too. And they don’t…you’re taxed at different rates as opposed to testamentary trusts. And so there is often an advantage to do the classic scenario where we have a husband and wife who are married. On the death of the first spouse, roll it over into a testamentary trust. It’s taxed at the lightest rate that can be taxed in Canada. That trust then stays alive, so to speak, during the surviving spouse’s lifetime. And then on his or her death, it finally falls into the next generation, the kids. And that’s a really simple but effective way of deferring the capital gains tax.

Another thing we talked about with the capital gains tax was how to offset it through uses of certain products, like you talk about when you can designate the RRSPs and so on, or a RIF or something to an individual who is going to receive a cottage, for example, say there’s a big tax hit. Another option we talked about was putting insurance instruments together even later in life, putting a joint last to die policy together where the two spouses buy a policy even late in life, where the last to die pays it out. And if you dovetail that into a spousal rollover or the spousal trust arrangement that we just talked about, you allow for easy transition into the next generation because you deferred the capital gains tax as far as you can and then on the death of the last spouse, a reasonable premium has been paid for the life insurance and then you have enough funds there, new funds essentially, to pay for this big capital gains tax.

The other area that we talked about finally was just dealing with and managing US assets. And the key issues there being that one that I always want to talk to my clients about is I make sure I want to double-check if they’re US citizens. And there was an interesting legislation that…I don’t know if it actually passed last week or not…but it was right up to the wire. In Canada, where if there was legislation that came about and it reminded me of these tax situations, it came about as a result of the fact this gentleman lived in rural Manitoba, was born actually in a US hospital. It was the closest hospital to where they lived in Manitoba. He was 40 years old now, so 40 years ago, his mother had to have, wanted to give birth somewhere and the closest hospital was a US hospital. He was born there and this gentleman, it’s a little off topic but it ties into the same sort of scenarios that we see in estate planning, and this gentleman ended up getting himself into some trouble with the law. And there was a threat that he was going to be deported or sent back to the US to face US time for his activity, his criminal activity or alleged criminal activity. And it was fascinating because the legislation in Canada now where they’re trying to fix that so that that little loophole won’t happen, that someone who really was almost a US citizen…he may or may not even remember that he was obviously a US citizen. And I use that illustration because we run into this a lot of the time with clients who will say, oh yeah, my Mom did live in the US when she was little. And then you find out, gee, you know, was she filing tax returns? Well yeah, because she got this small pension from this one thing and so she didn’t file or did file, depending on the circumstances, and it creates a whole new layer of estate planning problems. So our third part of this was dealing with, not just those kinds of creative situations, but dealing with that very prevalent situation where you’re either a US citizen or you have US assets and you live in Canada. How do you manage that from a tax planning standpoint? And I hope some of our talk about that was helpful as well.

So I think this was…today’s podcast was really to recap and I guess in some ways, we’re going to…we’re just putting together our next mini series right now. And in some ways, what we’re going to try to keep doing is encapsulating sort of core issues, talking about them over a series of podcasts to the extent that we can, so that we can make sure that we drill down on these issues beyond just sort of superficial comment.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: That’s great, Ian. Thank you very much for that summary. I think you really did sum up everything that we’ve talked about and I do look forward to our next mini series.

Ian Hull: So thanks again for listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning. It’s Ian Hull.

Suzana Popovic-Montag: And Suzana Popovic-Montag.

Ian Hull: Thank you.

You’ve been listening to Hull on Estate and Succession Planning with Ian Hull and Suzana Popovic-Montag. The podcast you have been listening to has been provided as an information service. It is a summary of current legal issues in estates and estate planning. It is not legal advice and you are reminded to always talk with a legal professional regarding your specific circumstances.

To listen to other Hull On podcasts, or to leave a question or comment, please visit our website at www.hullestatemediation.com.

Our theme music is UpTempo14 by Gary and is courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network.

/mem

READ THE TRANSCRIBED PODCAST HERE

During Hull on Estates Podcast #29, Ian Hull and Jordan Atin, Senior Associate Counsel at Hull and Hull LLP, spoke with Kate Morgan, President of Podwise Social Media Inc. to discuss the concepts of Social Media and how they are relevant to the growth and success of law firms and small businesses.